Sometimes we just got to look the other way......

[The Evil Twin]

Everything known to man gets misused. Everything. And humans of every profession are imperfect. For me, most questions distill to a risk-versus-benefit analysis. LPR cameras represent next to zero risk for me, and I know them to be powerful crime-investigation tools. I’d like to see less crime, so I am happy to have LPRs.

I retired after more than 34 years in law enforcement. I met some terrible cops over that span, but not many. When I was 18 I got a completely BS ticket from one... But in my experience, the vast majority of the cops I worked with, were very fine people who were fully committed to truth, justice, fairness, the rule of law, and protecting their communities.

The LPR units that were installed in our patrol cars during my last year recorded hundreds of thousands of entries per month. Scaled nationally, that equates to millions of data points per day.

I haven’t heard of scores of LPR system misuses. Perhaps that’s possible. If true, I’d want to evaluate the frequency and severity of the misuses in the context of our crime and law enforcement volume. For perspective, the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office sentences about 100,000 people to prison every year (according to former DA Gil Garcetti). A large police department would see hundreds of LPR “hits” every day (stolen cars, suspended, drivers, arrest warrants, etc).

Think back on every horrific example of police use of force misconduct you’ve heard about since Rodney King (35+ years ago). All have been extensively covered by media, recycled in the news (often dozens of times), and replayed on YouTube. How many such incidents can you think of? Five? Ten? Fifty?

There are almost 750,000 sworn cops (between all branches, federal, state, and local) in the USA. The vast majority are now recorded by multiple devices during every citizen contact. Then there’s the civilian surveillance (via Ring Cameras, business cameras, and cell phones, etc). Like most, our police vehicle and body camera systems automatically activated if I exceeded 100 mph, OR I turned on emergency lights, OR I unholstered my Taser or pistol. (I had no ability to modify or delete the video.)

There are still some small agencies without camera systems, and there are undoubtedly some rural areas with a very low camera density, but the vast majority of police conduct — probably upwards of 90% is now captured on multiple cameras (often as many as five or six cameras). If one-tenth-of-one-percent of the 750,000 cops were using inappropriate physical force just once every five years, we’d still be seeing about 150 of these stories in the news every year. Put another way, if 99.9% of the cops never made such a mistake, and the remaining 0.01% only made one once every five years, we’d still see at least two or three of these horror stories every week! Unfortunately for the news media, these terrible stories are very rare — so rare the media elects to fill the void by recycling the old stories over and over, often hundreds of times over a period of years. (Also, although some of the stories are as tragic as they seem, many are not, because the media is NEVER invested in sharing facts that might tend mitigate police misconduct and make the involved cops seem human.)

The politicians, media, and plaintiffs lawyers are always eager to get their hands on the next example of police failure. Everybody knows that, so people who have such evidence are generally eager to bring it forward and sensationalize it. If these incidents were anything other than rare anomalies, we’d expect to see several examples every day.

So, back to my earlier question: how many terrible police misconduct stories do you remember over the last decade or two? I’m betting it’s closer to five than ten (or five hundred). If the misbehavior rate was even one-tenth-of one-percent, and only once every five years, you’d STILL have heard more than 150 such stories per year… Certainly you’d be aware of more than a handful, right? Maybe scores, at least?

I have investigated dirty cops. And dirty pastors and dirty priests, attorneys, dentists, teachers, coaches, scout leaders, doctors, carpenters, bankers, insurance agents, musicians, business-owners, athletes, and mechanics…

Although all humans and categories of humans are imperfect, society is now making fewer mistakes with cops, because full psychiatric testing and comprehensive background investigations are becoming standard in more and more police agencies. In many states, candidate polygraphs are required too. Then there the fact that a cop’s every move is tracked on two GPS units and recorded on cameras. If I have to choose between trusting the law enforcement world and trusting the rest of the crazies in our human asylum, it’s not a close call.

I value my privacy, and I have considerable contempt for the incompetence of large government, but I recognize that every decision represents a tradeoff. I’m happy to trade a tiny bit of my personal privacy for LPR use (less than most of us forfeit by loading “apps” on our phone, buying Samsung TVs, or installing Alexa”) in exchange for expediting the capture of real bad guys.

I respect your opinion, but I will not sacrifice an inch of my freedom. That’s why I am actively engaged in getting the BOCS to terminate the contracts with Flock.
The difference between the very few apps on my phone and ALPRs is that I choose to install them, limit their access and location data, and don’t install them if they don’t suit my whims.
Whether the media sensationalizes an incident or not doesn’t meet didn’t happen. Do a single search in any engine for ALPR misuse and start counting.
LEO are mostly good peeps. No question there. There are bad guys in any field. No issues driving past them knowing I’ll be recorded in some way or another. Should I choose to drive past them. I can (and often do) choose to flip the switch and black out my plate.
You know why body cams and car cams came about, right? Because there were enough instances where a cop could be exonerated by the video. It’s unfortunate that many more people will suffer (mostly women and minorities) from the misuse and vulnerabilities of these ALPRs before they get taken down.
Edit- I can also honestly say that the three times I have needed a cop, my weapon was closer and faster. By a very long time in a life or death situation.

 

[McE]

Mass, searchable location-surveillance infrastructure should never be allowed in this country. Full stop. Supporting it runs directly against the principles this country was founded on and is fundamentally incompatible with them.

Fuggin A, don't tell me we're pulling the "it's ok to trample your rights if it saves just one life" argument with government surveillance now...

 

[Potato Wilson]

I am just an inspector in the construction industry, working for small government. For several years now I have wished I was wearing a body camera at work. Interestingly enough, it’s not because of encounters I have out in the field doing my job. It’s because of the lies, abuse of power, and irresponsible conduct I experience from people with positions of power and “leadership” in the government.

 

[The Evil Twin]

Fuggin A, don't tell me we're pulling the "it's ok to trample your rights if it saves just one life" argument with government surveillance now...

I’ll pull that argument.
If it saves one ex girlfriend, ex wife, daughter, mother or anyone else from a psycho sociopath then it’s worth taking every single one down.

 

[Whaler27]

I respect your opinion, but I will not sacrifice an inch of my freedom. That’s why I am actively engaged in getting the BOCS to terminate the contracts with Flock.
The difference between the very few apps on my phone and ALPRs is that I choose to install them, limit their access and location data, and don’t install them if they don’t suit my whims.
Whether the media sensationalizes an incident or not doesn’t meet didn’t happen. Do a single search in any engine for ALPR misuse and start counting.
LEO are mostly good peeps. No question there. There are bad guys in any field. No issues driving past them knowing I’ll be recorded in some way or another. Should I choose to drive past them. I can (and often do) choose to flip the switch and black out my plate.
You know why body cams and car cams came about, right? Because there were enough instances where a cop could be exonerated by the video. It’s unfortunate that many more people will suffer (mostly women and minorities) from the misuse and vulnerabilities of these ALPRs before they get taken down.
Edit- I can also honestly say that the three times I have needed a cop, my weapon was closer and faster. By a very long time in a life or death situation.

We definitely agree on some things. Maybe even most.

Police unions were almost universally opposed to the idea of body cams in the beginning. Now the opposite is true, because the cameras make the majority of the citizen complaints evaporate (I’m guessing maybe 70% evaporate, because the tape provides conclusive proof that the complainant is lying, but I worked in a uniquely crazy, anti-law-enforcement state). I’ll provide one example not long before I retired: An Irate woman filed a complaint against a trooper who cited her. She accused the trooper of extreme rudeness and repeatedly using the F-word. The sergeant pulled up the video, watched it, then invited the complainant to come in to watch it. She accepted. The trooper was professional and polite from the beginning of the contact to the end of it. (He never once used the F-word or any other cuss-word). The woman was mad as a hornet after watching the video, as it clearly showed her reckless driving and proved she was lying about the trooper. (I’m sure she didn’t correct the record for her family and friends, but she decided to drop her complaint and plead guilty…).

Also, I agree there are many situations in which a police response won’t be quick enough. That has always been true, particularly in remote rural areas, but it’s truer as the population grows and police staffing continues to decline. (Our state population has increased over 60% over the last 45 years. During that time my former agency has been given a broad selection of additional responsibilities/duties/distractions, and the crime volume has surged upward, but the number of funded police officers has been slashed by about 300 and our helicopter program has been eliminated.)

Here are the two places our philosophies may diverge:

1) A tiny percentage of our population has the combination of situational awareness, training, and stress inoculation to effectively defend themselves in a sudden life-threatening situation. Some do, but most do not. For the remaining 99 out of 100 who won’t take the steps to become prepared (or are too young, old, or infirm to do so) cops are their best hope.

2) There are many parts of our lives we can’t personally prepare for or fully control — like the case we had where the nut-job broke into a daycare facility, kidnapped an unrelated 7 year old little girl, and took off. Or the elderly grandmother with dementia who found her car keys late one night and left her daughter’s house for points unknown (we found her healthy but disoriented and low on fuel almost 400 miles away), or the estranged husband who killed his ex and her boyfriend, then fled with his infant son. Or the homicide suspect who stole the victim’s car and had a 90 minute jump on us (we had no way of knowing his direction of travel). Or the family of four who left to visit relatives for Christmas, but never arrived (It was a 450 mile trip through two remote passes and challenging winter storms. Where should the search be focused?)

Both of my wife’s parents are in their 90s and living in a rural area. If they wander off some night, I’m going to hope there are active LPRs along their path. Similarly, if some whackjob injures or kidnaps one of my grandkids, I’m going to pray for active LPRs, because without that help, the diminishing LE resources will have little hope of finding them quickly. (When we get an LPR hit, it resets the timeline and allows an immediate refocusing of increasingly limited assets. In some cases the hit shrunk our search radius from over 250 miles to less than 50 miles by the time we could have an area covered.)

My opinion has also evolved over time as I have worked cases that would have almost certainly been lost or solved too late without LPR. (For example, in one murder case, an LPR hit from 900 miles away was the first information we received that the suspect had left my state. It provided the basis for a federal UFAP warrant, FBI assistance, and other help that got the murderer in custody less than 36 hours later).

The examples above are a small subset of my personal experiences with LPRs: They help catch a lot of serious criminals and they save people.

I have now read some counter-examples where LPRs have been used improperly. I get it, although the examples of misuse seem less powerful and much less numerous than the success stories. (I haven’t read about any misuses that resulted in death, serious injury, serious financial harm, or other protracted losses. Maybe such stories are out there too?) Regardless, I agree that reasonable people can disagree about these things.

I share my experiences, so folks who haven’t worked with LPRs are familiar with the good they do daily. For me, the good they do outweighs the potential harm from any abuse by at least 10,000 to 1 — but I started this discussion by admitting my retired life is pretty boring. I’m not involved in anything that would interest the government even if the government had the resources to fuss with the little fish (which it clearly doesn’t). My family is equally boring. As I frequently remind my equally boring conspiracy-theorist friends and family, I was actually inside the big government law enforcement machine, and we were never looking for ways to bother soccer moms and other innocent folks. We had a very long list of genuine bad guys and other hazards that overfilled our days and nights.

 

[dzrtdzl]

Whaler27, 100% agree with you, as I too am retired LEO. Las Vegas to be exact. These cameras are everywhere on the Las Vegas Strip, for good reason. And throughout the valley. I do understand peoples points of view about freedom and liberties being encroached upon. But, the cameras do way more good than harm. Millions of plates recorded every day in the U.S. and barely any misuse or mistakes made in the overall stats. A lot of bs is always reported by the media, because it makes for good views.

Bad LEO's will get weeded out or caught. Fired or convicted. A good thing. No matter what the crime is. Like I said before, even if Flock is removed, there will be another company replacing it. Motorola is another big company that Las Vegas uses for surveillance, along with Flock. If a loved one or family member ever becomes a victim of a violent crime, such as being killed, kidnapped or whatever, these cameras are invaluable. Or preventing a terrorists attack. I'll take that "trade-off" any day of the week.

 

[Optimus🤖]

Whaler27, 100% agree with you, as I too am retired LEO. Las Vegas to be exact. These cameras are everywhere on the Las Vegas Strip, for good reason. And throughout the valley. I do understand peoples points of view about freedom and liberties being encroached upon. But, the cameras do way more good than harm. Millions of plates recorded every day in the U.S. and barely any misuse or mistakes made in the overall stats. A lot of bs is always reported by the media, because it makes for good views.

Bad LEO's will get weeded out or caught. Fired or convicted. A good thing. No matter what the crime is. Like I said before, even if Flock is removed, there will be another company replacing it. Motorola is another big company that Las Vegas uses for surveillance, along with Flock. If a loved one or family member ever becomes a victim of a violent crime, such as being killed, kidnapped or whatever, these cameras are invaluable. Or preventing a terrorists attack. I'll take that "trade-off" any day of the week.

100% brother! After that ghetto rat Ruggs killed Tina and her dog driving 156 mph in his Vette, I'm all for them. He only got 3-10 years!? Scumbag.

For those who don't know:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34226323/the-case-henry-ruggs-iii-distraught-family-desperate-answers

 

[McE]

We definitely agree on some things. Maybe even most.

Police unions were almost universally opposed to the idea of body cams in the beginning. Now the opposite is true, because the cameras make the majority of the citizen complaints evaporate (I’m guessing maybe 70% evaporate, because the tape provides conclusive proof that the complainant is lying, but I worked in a uniquely crazy, anti-law-enforcement state). I’ll provide one example not long before I retired: An Irate woman filed a complaint against a trooper who cited her. She accused the trooper of extreme rudeness and repeatedly using the F-word. The sergeant pulled up the video, watched it, then invited the complainant to come in to watch it. She accepted. The trooper was professional and polite from the beginning of the contact to the end of it. (He never once used the F-word or any other cuss-word). The woman was mad as a hornet after watching the video, as it clearly showed her reckless driving and proved she was lying about the trooper. (I’m sure she didn’t correct the record for her family and friends, but she decided to drop her complaint and plead guilty…).

Also, I agree there are many situations in which a police response won’t be quick enough. That has always been true, particularly in remote rural areas, but it’s truer as the population grows and police staffing continues to decline. (Our state population has increased over 60% over the last 45 years. During that time my former agency has been given a broad selection of additional responsibilities/duties/distractions, and the crime volume has surged upward, but the number of funded police officers has been slashed by about 300 and our helicopter program has been eliminated.)

Here are the two places our philosophies may diverge:

1) A tiny percentage of our population has the combination of situational awareness, training, and stress inoculation to effectively defend themselves in a sudden life-threatening situation. Some do, but most do not. For the remaining 99 out of 100 who won’t take the steps to become prepared (or are too young, old, or infirm to do so) cops are their best hope.

2) There are many parts of our lives we can’t personally prepare for or fully control — like the case we had where the nut-job broke into a daycare facility, kidnapped an unrelated 7 year old little girl, and took off. Or the elderly grandmother with dementia who found her car keys late one night and left her daughter’s house for points unknown (we found her healthy but disoriented and low on fuel almost 400 miles away), or the estranged husband who killed his ex and her boyfriend, then fled with his infant son. Or the homicide suspect who stole the victim’s car and had a 90 minute jump on us (we had no way of knowing his direction of travel). Or the family of four who left to visit relatives for Christmas, but never arrived (It was a 450 mile trip through two remote passes and challenging winter storms. Where should the search be focused?)

Both of my wife’s parents are in their 90s and living in a rural area. If they wander off some night, I’m going to hope there are active LPRs along their path. Similarly, if some whackjob injures or kidnaps one of my grandkids, I’m going to pray for active LPRs, because without that help, the diminishing LE resources will have little hope of finding them quickly. (When we get an LPR hit, it resets the timeline and allows an immediate refocusing of increasingly limited assets. In some cases the hit shrunk our search radius from over 250 miles to less than 50 miles by the time we could have an area covered.)

My opinion has also evolved over time as I have worked cases that would have almost certainly been lost or solved too late without LPR. (For example, in one murder case, an LPR hit from 900 miles away was the first information we received that the suspect had left my state. It provided the basis for a federal UFAP warrant, FBI assistance, and other help that got the murderer in custody less than 36 hours later).

The examples above are a small subset of my personal experiences with LPRs: They help catch a lot of serious criminals and they save people.

I have now read some counter-examples where LPRs have been used improperly. I get it, although the examples of misuse seem less powerful and much less numerous than the success stories. (I haven’t read about any misuses that resulted in death, serious injury, serious financial harm, or other protracted losses. Maybe such stories are out there too?) Regardless, I agree that reasonable people can disagree about these things.

I share my experiences, so folks who haven’t worked with LPRs are familiar with the good they do daily. For me, the good they do outweighs the potential harm from any abuse by at least 10,000 to 1 — but I started this discussion by admitting my retired life is pretty boring. I’m not involved in anything that would interest the government even if the government had the resources to fuss with the little fish (which it clearly doesn’t). My family is equally boring. As I frequently remind my equally boring conspiracy-theorist friends and family, I was actually inside the big government law enforcement machine, and we were never looking for ways to bother soccer moms and other innocent folks. We had a very long list of genuine bad guys and other hazards that overfilled our days and nights.

First of all, I understand and appreciate your perspective and your service. I don’t dispute for a second that they’re useful. I know they solve crimes and save lives. That’s what makes this a difficult argument. But usefulness alone cannot be the standard for how much surveillance power we hand the government over people who aren’t suspected of anything.

“I’m boring and the government has no reason to care where I go” is basically the surveillance version of “if you’ve got nothing to hide, you’ve got nothing to worry about.” Rights aren’t predicated on whether the government currently has a reason to be interested in you.

And the potential for abuse isn’t hypothetical anymore. If an individual systematically tracked, logged, and catalogued someone’s movements over time, we’d call that stalking. Give someone a badge and access to a nationwide network capable of doing essentially the same thing and suddenly we’re debating whether the benefits outweigh it. It’s the Patriot Act’s roided-up big brother.

I’m perfectly willing to concede that these systems catch bad guys. I’m just not willing to build mass, searchable surveillance infrastructure over the entire innocent population in order to do it.

For the record, I’ve got nothing to hide except a bunch of machine guns (they’re legal ), but that’s not the point. How much surveillance is “enough?” Who decides?