Scared Sh!tless

[shermanator2]

Agree trailer level - but would suggest 20%-25% pin weight for a 5th wheel or goose neck - which is what the OP posted about. As you noted 12% - 15% would be good for a bumper pull trailer.

OP said he has a WeighSafe Weight Distribution hitch. I am assuming that is a conventional (bumper pull) hitch.

 

[shermanator2]

Mis spoke on the built in but the trailer needs to be a bit lower in the front front tounge weight to alleviate wandering. High in front will definitely cause excessive wandering. This is worse with single axle trailers.

This is a new one on me. I have not heard of anyone suggest that level is not optimum for a trailer. Lowering the tongue will move the center of mass slightly forward, but not significantly I don't think. I am thinking that it would be better to move the load a little forward and keep the trailer level. I will have to think about this one some more.

 

[Modman]

I have not heard of anyone suggest that level is not optimum for a trailer.

I'm with you @shermanator2 . It's about tongue weight. I agree that without changing anything else, lowering the front will slightly increase tongue, but like you said, not significantly. Of course, you can only get as level as your hitch will allow and without having a custom hitch insert made you're probably limited to 1" increments. My method is to pick the closest increment to level, though, not intentionally put it lower than that. You really want the contact patch/load to be equivalent at all trailer wheels (2, 4, etc). On a tandem axle trailer this means you will have both axles loaded equally. If the tongue difference is significant then that means you will be unloading the rear axle significantly as well. I don't think either occurs within the range we are talking about. So in my head I'm back to "level" makes sense with the correct amount of tongue.

 

[MrFancypants]

The angle of the trailer makes zero difference on the tongue weight. It is solely based on the weight distribution of the trailer.

The hitch height definitely affects how the weight is distributed between tandem axles, so close to level is best.

Lever Mechanical Advantage Equation and Calculator - Case #1

This lever mechanical advantage equation and calculator Case #1 will determine the force required for equilibrium with the known forces and length.

www.engineersedge.com

 

[shermanator2]

I'm with you @shermanator2 . It's about tongue weight. I agree that without changing anything else, lowering the front will slightly increase tongue, but like you said, not significantly. Of course, you can only get as level as your hitch will allow and without having a custom hitch insert made you're probably limited to 1" increments. My method is to pick the closest increment to level, though, not intentionally put it lower than that. You really want the contact patch/load to be equivalent at all trailer wheels (2, 4, etc). On a tandem axle trailer this means you will have both axles loaded equally. If the tongue difference is significant then that means you will be unloading the rear axle significantly as well. I don't think either occurs within the range we are talking about. So in my head I'm back to "level" makes sense with the correct amount of tongue.

Great discussion getting into the the nitty gritty here. Too bad the OP seems to have dropped out. I agree with everything you say but would like to elaborate a little on the multi-axle trailer case. There are two different suspension systems used on multi-axle trailers. Torsion(Torflex®) and leaf spring.
Leaf springs are normally set up with equalizers between the springs. In this case over a limited travel range the load on axles is equalized. This is true until equalizer rocker contacts the trailer frame. This means that over a reasonable range of fore and aft tilt, the contact patches will be equally loaded. Any tilt that there is will reduce the travel available for going over uneven surfaces. This seams like a good reason to aim for level, but it does not have to be perfect.
Torsion springs are a different animal. The axles are independent of each other with no load equalization. The tongue height will greatly effect the axle loading and is much more critical. Lowering the tongue transfers weight to the front axle and raising it transfers weight to the rear axle. This makes it also more critical that the tongue weight is measured at same attitude that the trailer is towed at.
With leaf springs or with a single axle trailer, lowering the tongue will slightly increase tongue weight due to the CG moving forward. With torsion springs, lowering the tongue will significantly reduce the tongue weight.

 

[2020Tremor]

There is no such thing as caster in a non steering axle like a trailer axle. Caster is the inclination of the steering axis, and since there is no steering axis, the concept does not exist. There is come positive camber when unloaded built into solid trailer axles so that when fully loaded they bend to near zero camber. I don't think that this has much to do with sway.

A agree with you that tongue weight is the most important factor. Unfortunately the OP has not told us what his tongue weight actually is. I do not agree that one should adjust the tongue weight to rake the trailer lower in front. One should adjust the tongue weight to be 12 to 15% of the trailer weight then adjust the drop or rise of the hitch to make the trailer approximately level.

I completely agree with checking the tongue weight vs rake. My initial bucking load squatted the truck and trailer pretty good just not enough for the total weight of everything. Once properly balanced the squat changed a little but not huge amount, load was rather heavy to begin with.

 

[shermanator2]

The angle of the trailer makes zero difference on the tongue weight. It is solely based on the weight distribution of the trailer.

The hitch height definitely affects how the weight is distributed between tandem axles, so close to level is best.

Lever Mechanical Advantage Equation and Calculator - Case #1

This lever mechanical advantage equation and calculator Case #1 will determine the force required for equilibrium with the known forces and length.

www.engineersedge.com

That is not the right case for a trailer. A trailer does not have its mass suspended from the frame. The center of mass is fixed to the trailer and significantly above the trailer axle. Tilting the trailer (single axle) forward moves the center of mass forward, slightly increasing the tongue weight.

 

[MrFancypants]

That is not the right case for a trailer. A trailer does not have its mass suspended from the frame. The center of mass is fixed to the trailer and significantly above the trailer axle. Tilting the trailer (single axle) forward moves the center of mass forward, slightly increasing the tongue weight.

Alright I’ll agree but for different reasons. As the lever rotates around the fulcrum, the direction of the forces are no longer perpendicular to the lever. If the trailer were standing vertically on the tongue, the tongue weight would be 100%. However, while it isn’t zero, it’s still negligible for a “reasonably level” trailer.

 

[overland]

Here's a good video on the effects of trailer tilt on tongue weight:

Short answer, forward tilt increases tongue weight with single axles, but reduces it with tandem axles. Opposite for rearward tilt.

 

[MrFancypants]

Short answer, forward tilt increases tongue weight with single axles, but reduces it with tandem axles. Opposite for rearward tilt.

Good video and makes sense since the change in hitch height moves the fulcrum forward/backward between tandem axles. But keep in mind he showed +/- 3" in hitch height only changed tongue weight +/- 5%, and his test is using much shorter trailers where the effects will be more pronounced. If the goal is 12% tongue weight, that means approximately between 11.5% and 12.5% across a big range of hitch heights, which is still totally fine. Your tongue weight will vary far more than 5% based on how it's loaded, especially including tank levels.

 

[Supercup]

OP said he has a WeighSafe Weight Distribution hitch. I am assuming that is a conventional (bumper pull) hitch.

Yep you are right I mixed up my threads !

 

[DLayne]

Agree with all regarding tong weight. Would also be helpful noting what the weight of the toys in the back are. Does it sway unloaded? We tow with only about 9k and never had an issue, Even at high passing speeds. Only, issue I have had is when the idiot at the gravel yard loaded my dump trailer in the middle to rear. Almost had to change shorts at 45mp. Half an hour later on the side of the road shoveling 3/4 minus to the front and problem solved. Never had to use a WD hitch with the Tremor. +1 for scale reading loaded.

 

[hahnster]

I'll start off by saying this is my 1st post here and if I'm not following the rules, then please let me know. I've read a ton of posts here and am really hoping for just a straight answer.

I have a Hyperlite 3016 Toy Hauler that I have been towing for a few years with my Chevy 2500 HD and never had a single issue. I use a Weigh Safe WD hitch.

I wanted some upgrades and decided to trade it in. I got my 24 F250 Tremor last month and immediately had a trip planned and was excited. Reconfigured the Weigh Safe for the new truck. Off we go. Got about 30 mins down the road and realized the sway was ridiculous and I could not do anything more than 60MPH. I was catching sway from passing motorcycles. I mean, come on... Really? I have never been more scared to tow something in my life. Not to mention it felt like I was driving a boat on the water. It was all over the place.

Again, this is not my 1st rodeo on towing a trailer, so I know how to load properly, set the WS, etc. If there is something I need to add, then I'm all ears. I've seen mention of adding sway bars, air bags, etc, but what am I missing?

I'll also add, that I catch sway period... without towing anything. Every time I'm passed I get that pull, and push...

TIA for any helpful responses.

DigiManTX
Did you ever solve this problem? I am having precisely the same issue and would like to find out what actually worked. Thank You

 

[Optimus🤖]

DigiManTX
Did you ever solve this problem? I am having precisely the same issue and would like to find out what actually worked. Thank You

Unfortunately, he hasn't posted since June 2024 and was last seen in October. Good luck with your situation and hope others can chime in. Keep us posted!

 

[HelmPilot]

Unfortunately the original poster lacked some of the critical info to really diagnose this problem. But the topic of proper trailer tow setup is absolutely pertinent to all Tremor owners because regardless of whether we are occasional towers or every day towers safe towing is critical. There’s no telling where he went wrong but obviously he missed something as too many of us tow with our Tremors very comfortably. So I’m adding my two sense here.

First off Weight Distribution (WD) and sway are two different BUT related issues. WD has a lot to do with the Trucks suspension, whereas sway is far more related to trailer factors. So my guess is when he originally setup the WD and truck’s ride height (as measured at the ground to fender well height) he probably setup the WD load arms to bring the truck back to it’s regular unloaded height and I’m assuming he was smart enough to set the hitch height to have the trailer virtually level. The mistake is you adjust the WD sway/equalizing arm force to bring the truck to the same height as if you have 1500 pounds in the bed with the trailer level. This is a super common setup mistake! The rear of the truck becomes unloaded and is super susceptible to sway forces imposed on the suspension from a 10,000+ pound trailer and actually the tongue weight on the hitch ball lightens because the arms are “equalizing “ weight between both the truck and trailer suspensions. Think about it…….the anti sway effects of the sway/load bars are actually “Helping” to transfer the trailer sway into the truck by making the connection between the two more rigid and thus the “pucker up” that your seat of the pants feels in the drivers seat happens!

Moral of this dissertation is setup properly and use sway/equalizing bars only if your tongue weight is going to exceed your vehicles nominal load capacity or your trailers wind profile is tall enough to be susceptible to side draft vacuum. If you use sway control don’t over equalize.

 

[hahnster]

Unfortunately the original poster lacked some of the critical info to really diagnose this problem. But the topic of proper trailer tow setup is absolutely pertinent to all Tremor owners because regardless of whether we are occasional towers or every day towers safe towing is critical. There’s no telling where he went wrong but obviously he missed something as too many of us tow with our Tremors very comfortably. So I’m adding my two sense here.

First off Weight Distribution (WD) and sway are two different BUT related issues. WD has a lot to do with the Trucks suspension, whereas sway is far more related to trailer factors. So my guess is when he originally setup the WD and truck’s ride height (as measured at the ground to fender well height) he probably setup the WD load arms to bring the truck back to it’s regular unloaded height and I’m assuming he was smart enough to set the hitch height to have the trailer virtually level. The mistake is you adjust the WD sway/equalizing arm force to bring the truck to the same height as if you have 1500 pounds in the bed with the trailer level. This is a super common setup mistake! The rear of the truck becomes unloaded and is super susceptible to sway forces imposed on the suspension from a 10,000+ pound trailer and actually the tongue weight on the hitch ball lightens because the arms are “equalizing “ weight between both the truck and trailer suspensions. Think about it…….the anti sway effects of the sway/load bars are actually “Helping” to transfer the trailer sway into the truck by making the connection between the two more rigid and thus the “pucker up” that your seat of the pants feels in the drivers seat happens!

Moral of this dissertation is setup properly and use sway/equalizing bars only if your tongue weight is going to exceed your vehicles nominal load capacity or your trailers wind profile is tall enough to be susceptible to side draft vacuum. If you use sway control don’t over equalize.

Thank you for the information. Just want to make sure I understand. Are you saying that the common setup mistake is that the WD is adjusted so that there is no squat at the rear? In other words no squat despite all the tongue weight?

 

[NightForceFan]

OP viewed the thread this afternoon, first time since October. Interesting that he didn’t chime in.

 

[HelmPilot]

Thank you for the information. Just want to make sure I understand. Are you saying that the common setup mistake is that the WD is adjusted so that there is no squat at the rear? In other words no squat despite all the tongue weight?

 

[HelmPilot]

The short answer is yes. This is a “Tremor” truck forum aimed at 1/2 to 1 ton pickup trucks that are designed to carry weight in the truck bed. If the weight is not there the back axle essentially has less weight on the tires ( this is why we put weight in the bed during the winter to improve traction and rear stability in snow) and as such is way more susceptible to side forces (sway) imparted by the trailer tongue on the hitch ball which is typically located (as a leverage arm) about 4 ft behind the axle. That leverage arm accentuates the side force significantly. This is why Fith Wheel and Goose Neck trailers are inherently more stabil. So thus pickup trucks with WD setups have to be setup at the equalized (front and Back axle weights ) for max stability and sway resistance.

On passenger cars that are by design having closer to equal axle weight the typical WD setup returns the body ride height to a non rear squat position.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[hahnster]

That makes a lot of sense that the trucks need weight in the bed. Is there an ideal tongue weight that would provide that needed weight? Appreciate the help, just trying to educate myself.