Banks Ram Air CAI

[Cux211]

Isn’t post #105 you? I was trying explain the purpose of posting pictures of an S&B intake — trying to answer the question you asked. Lol. Not trying to be an asshole either, and sorry this was befuddling for you, but the arguments and merits concerning CAI systems made by S&B and others are the same for “gasser” motors. Actually, any merit to the cold-air part of the CAI argument it’s even more true for normally aspirated gas motors, as forced induction of any kind (including turbo diesels) has a much bigger impact on available oxygen for combustion than a small reduction in air intake temperature.

If you don’t understand the point, or you don’t think it has merit, you’re always free to ignore it.

Lol.

lol it certainly was not a question to anything other than why you quoted me in that post I asked nothing about what an S&B looks like been using them for years and years fare well knowing they don’t add anything other than looks and ease of cleaning, my original post was 103 all I said was I’d stick with S&B if anything at all that’s why the rest of it made zero sense

 

[JTredway]

What I’m getting from this conversation is that the cold air intakes look cool and help the motor growl a bit more, which for some folks is important I guess. But they don’t affect performance so if you want to spend $ for what’s cool that’s fine. I did that when I was young too. But I’ll keep my cash in my pocket this time. Thanks for the lively discussions.

I think it does make a difference with a tune but not a requirement till over a certain HP. The ease of maint is nice though. I personally rock a S&B but the lid is on it, i run the dry nonserviceable filter with S&B filter sock.

The lid does not effect air flow and if anything let's the intake suck in hot air without it and in stop and go traffic it ramps up quick. @HeavyAssault and I did some crude nonscientific testing and seemed to just be better with the lid on. Cruising temps were identical.

 

[Lunch Box]

What I’m getting from this conversation is that the cold air intakes look cool and help the motor growl a bit more, which for some folks is important I guess. But they don’t affect performance so if you want to spend $ for what’s cool that’s fine. I did that when I was young too. But I’ll keep my cash in my pocket this time. Thanks for the lively discussions.

Most of the mods all of us do including myself don't improve anything. They either look good, sound better or ride a bit better. I assure you based on my experience none of it was worth the thousands I spent to accomplish what I thought I was going to accomplish!!!

But damn it makes me HAPPY!!

 

[Whaler27]

They MAKE you think there's an improvement....changing the signals to the PCM isn't an effective way to gain anything but to make you "FEEL" a difference, when there's nothing really added.



Yea....keep thinking that way. That's wrong on SO many levels.

The PURE basics of building a motor is airflow in and out. Essentially any ICE is a big air pump. The "easier" air gets in-n-out the better. It's been that way since the '50's. Build any real NA motor for power the FIRST thing people start wanting to do is port intakes, and bore over cylinders.




I'll say OEM tuning is like the bottom end of all the parameters of a capable motor. When you open the air filter flow (let's say) you don't change 90% of the parameters, you might change maybe 10%. Without additional changes you don't notice any difference. Hence removing the OEM paper air filter on a dyno run to compare likely yields very little change. Now....make the intake piping less restrictive, open the CAC area, you start to make gains. Maybe you pull the intake manifolds out for porting....then open the exhaust manifolds....the a larger exhaust system. Then you add in the changes in tuning tables.....

It all adds up.

What I love about Banks is he PROVES lots of things ARE TRUE even when comparing products across various manufacturers. His teenage ranting about S&B can be picked apart in a few minutes as his OWN products are against his OWN rants about products.
It's laughable....his little pouting face, ranting,....OMG it's too funny.

We may be talking past each other? I 100% agree engines need to breathe — that’s fundamental, as you say. You can certainly choke off engine power by restricting air. And you can stall an engine by blocking the exhaust.

The question is what factor is limiting performance? I see guys put 5” and even 6” exhaust on their 300 hp diesel trucks to “improve flow”. Would a 9” exhaust be even better? Is there no limit to the benefit of improving engine breathing? If not, how do you determine where the optimum breathability is reached?

If the engine has all the air it needs to make full use of available fuel, making more air available doesn’t improve anything — which explains why the engines running with open, unfiltered, zero-restriction intakes didn’t show improvement on the dyno until the fueling and boost were increased. Obviously, more air will be needed when more fuel is added — which is why higher performance tunes increase boost and fueling rate together to develop more power.

in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s we put tuners, intakes, and bigger exhausts on every truck we bought. Looking back, I wish we had tested/measured the performance of all those trucks after installation of the tunes, but before changing the intake and exhaust. In those days none of my trucks ever had all the mods to make truly BIG power — maybe 25% improvement? But at that time there were 1000 hp Cummins 5.9s built to compete at our summer truck/tractor pulls. Those things had HUGE intake and exhaust volume, but they were flowing crazy amounts of diesel, propane, and other additives. I don’t think bolting their intake and exhaust systems onto my current Tremor would do anything for performance.

 

[JTredway]

We may be talking past each other? I 100% agree engines need to breathe — that’s fundamental, as you say. You can certainly choke off engine power by restricting air. And you can stall an engine by blocking the exhaust.

The question is what factor is limiting performance? I see guys put 5” and even 6” exhaust on their 300 hp diesel trucks to “improve flow”. Would a 9” exhaust be even better? Is there no limit to the benefit of improving engine breathing? If not, how do you determine where the optimum breathability is reached?

If the engine has all the air it needs to make full use of available fuel, making more air available doesn’t improve anything — which explains why the engines running with open, unfiltered, zero-restriction intakes didn’t show improvement on the dyno until the fueling and boost were increased. Obviously, more air will be needed when more fuel is added — which is why higher performance tunes increase boost and fueling rate together to develop more power.

in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s we put tuners, intakes, and bigger exhausts on every truck we bought. Looking back, I wish we had tested/measured the performance of all those trucks after installation of the tunes, but before changing the intake and exhaust. In those days none of my trucks ever had all the mods to make truly BIG power — maybe 25% improvement? But at that time there were 1000 hp Cummins 5.9s built to compete at our summer truck/tractor pulls. Those things had HUGE intake and exhaust volume, but they were flowing crazy amounts of diesel, propane, and other additives. I don’t think bolting their intake and exhaust systems onto my current Tremor would do anything for performance.

Probably not unless you had a restriction like dirty filter, like when guys swap in new spark plugs and like wow hp but I'm reality wow maintenance and gained back normal power.

With today's systems, they're looking for a certain MAF, boost, and inferred TQ value and the ECU will target that and that's the end. It just might hit those values more efficiently and quick on the throttle tip in bc less negative restriction pulling through the filter. You essentially just move the Dyno graph left or right at most probably and maybe hit a bit more torque.

You can't just throw a bigger pipe though under most conditions without freaking out the ECU bc it rescales the MAF values and a larger pipe can make the ECU see slower air coming in. S&B does have an example of this with their Mustang/F150 V8 kits, one explicitly requires tuning bc he intake becomes massive.

Also like you stated. At some point you lose ROI and just not worth it unless racing and chancing tenths.

 

[trmrzla]

So...should I get a Banks CAI for my 6.7?

 

[JTredway]

So...should I get a Banks CAI for my 6.7?

I definitely think you should spend money on mods !

 

[trmrzla]

I definitely think you should spend money on mods !

Sounds like good advice!

 

[HeavyAssault]

I see guys put 5” and even 6” exhaust on their 300 hp diesel trucks to “improve flow”.

By "guys" you mean Gale Banks of course....cause he DID add a 5" exhaust to "IMPROVE FLOW" and has the data to show it. So..............

So...should I get a Banks CAI for my 6.7?

OF course you should....Gale Banks says so, and HAS the data to show it. You must agree then it HAS be true to help/improve your otherwise stock truck. We ALL must follow the preachings of the mighty GB!

 

[Cux211]

So...should I get a Banks CAI for my 6.7?

No, S&B lol

 

[HeavyAssault]

Just buy S&B to make ol' GB blow a gasket.

BTW the only time running a "sealed box" system helps you is when your truck is sitting still with the motor running.
An open-element S&B will "bring in hot air" while the truck is sitting still, but there is ZERO, NONE, NO performance issues. Why?? Cause the truck is SITTING STILL.
When you drive off the outside air flushes out the engine bay. THEN the CAC is cooled/warmed by the secondary coolant system. OMG....YES....there's another factor ADDING HEAT to the intake air before it gets to the intake manifolds. Cause Ford DESIGNED the system to CONTROL THE INTAKE TEMPS.
Since I'm the guy watching all this happen in real time (CTS3), pretty much ALL the time the difference in your outside air temps (AAT) and CAC out temps tend to run a 20* delta.

SO it doesn't matter if you run a sealed box or open-element filter system. You WILL NOT KNOW nor will you FEEL any differences in how the motor performs.

 

[HolyCrapItsFunk]

I’ve been wondering what the reason is for wanting +20 degree charged air temps. To offset the EGRs lack of oxygen? Guessing the soot issue is more concerning than NOX.

 

[Lunch Box]

By "guys" you mean Gale Banks of course....cause he DID add a 5" exhaust to "IMPROVE FLOW" and has the data to show it. So..............



OF course you should....Gale Banks says so, and HAS the data to show it. You must agree then it HAS be true to help/improve your otherwise stock truck. We ALL must follow the preachings of the mighty GB!

@HeavyAssault for some reason thinks creative marketing is negative marketing! I personally like S&B, but I own numerous Banks products and could not be more satisfied. Gale Banks has been in business 30+ years, customer service and tech support is second to none. The reason I chose S&B over Banks on the CAI was simply a bit easier (faster) to access filter element.

 

[HeavyAssault]

The "creative marketing" of GB leads to ONLY one conclusion. As he PROVES to EVERYONE the advantages of installing aftermarket intakes and exhausts are PROVEN with data even on stock trucks there's gains to be had!!

Who doesn't want to gain something, even if it's a little???

So .....NO ONE can argue with GB that these products from whatever company DO IN FACT work. We can only "fight" about which company we choose to use and why.

 

[trmrzla]

The "creative marketing" of GB leads to ONLY one conclusion. As he PROVES to EVERYONE the advantages of installing aftermarket intakes and exhausts are PROVEN with data even on stock trucks there's gains to be had!!

Who doesn't want to gain something, even if it's a little???

So .....NO ONE can argue with GB that these products from whatever company DO IN FACT work. We can only "fight" about which company we choose to use and why.

So...I should get one?

 

[HeavyAssault]

So...I should get one?

GB says so...so IYKYK.

 

[Whaler27]

A turbo compensates for warmer air temperatures by using an intercooler to cool the compressed air, so the engine gets denser (more oxygen rich) air even when ambient temperatures rise, thus maintaining power output. In some vehicles the computer will adjust fuel injection timing and boost pressure to maintain target performance parameters with increasing ambient air pressure and altitude. This is the way the Audi systems worked several years back — so the fueling and boost mapping adjusted to keep performance steady, whether it was 40 degrees at sea level or 90 degrees at 4000 feet.

Not all systems function like the older Audis. In most systems the turbos mitigate the impact of warmer air, but don’t eliminate it. That’s true of most turboprop planes, for example, but with the Audi programming where the boost was automatically adjusted to reach density targets, it should effectively eliminate any influence of temperature or altitude within the maximum boost limits. (I suspect plenty of people ran CAIs on those Audis anyway.”)

I haven’t been able to find out how Ford’s newer programming/mapping responds to air temp, if at all.

 

[Lunch Box]

So...I should get one?

Absolutely

 

[gmbpilot757]

I say we all pitch in for the @HeavyAssault Banks CAI fund…

 

[Lunch Box]

I say we all pitch in for the @HeavyAssault Banks CAI fund…

If you only knew.......!!!