Banks Ram Air CAI

Different CAIs work or don't work based on the needs of the engine. It's not about what we want, it's about what the engine wants.

1. Is the 6.7HO engine restricted on the intake, the exhaust, or pretty balanced? eg, has anyone felt SOTP differences?
2. I've run CAIs and they're noisier. Part of the tradeoff. On long drives, the drone can really (really) get old. Anyone done this one and able to give thoughts on long road-trips (either background rumble or turbo-whine)


TIA!

-mox
COLD AIR INTAKE RANT:
In the late 1970s I saw a K&N display at a local 4x4 store. The display was a clear plexiglass box with a fan in it that blew air up a plexiglass tube about ten inches tall. When the K&N filter was inserted between the fan and the tube a ping pong ball floated easily in the middle of the tube, but if an OEM air filter was inserted the air flow got choked off and the ball fell to the bottom. The sign in front said “Let your engine breathe for better power and fuel economy!”

Below the K&N display there was a lengthy explanation of parasitic energy loss from the engine having to fight to suck against the resistance to get the air it needs. I’d used early K&N filters on my dirt bikes, mostly because everybody told me they would make more power, so I bought this line of reasoning hook, line, and sinker. As it turns out, that was all complete bullshit, but millions of dollars in marketing and race sponsorship has kept them swimming in money. (When you rebuild your engines after every race, and you’re being paid millions in sponsorship fees, you can afford to worry less about filter effectiveness.)

Years later the CAI — “cold air intake”— sales pitch was added… That said that cooler air from outside the engine compartment is denser, and therefore contains more oxygen by volume than the hot air under the hood, so the engine will make more power if it’s fed outside air. I bought that one too.

As it turns out, that’s 99% crap too. When I finally saw all the data I discovered I had spent thousands of dollars over almost twenty years installing various air filtration systems that did zero good (and some bad) for my trucks and jeeps.

My brother and I ran Powerstroke (me) and Cummins diesels (him) for more than 35 years, and we spent a lot of time and money on tuners, cold air intakes, bigger turbos, and other mods between about 1985 and 2008. Near the end of that time Ford, GM, and Cummins diesels were developing much more power from the factory, and the diesel forums were posting extensive research on mods. An engineer on one of those forums put together a comprehensive series of tests that measured rear wheel horsepower before and after the installation of various CAI options. He also measured filter efficacy, loading, and air flow by measuring initial resistance (with new filters), resistance after loading, and the size of particulates that passed through the filters when new and at various stages of loading. The power and economy loss to OEM filter resistance was, at best, negligible — and even when small improvements appeared, they weren’t repeated or sustained, as the filters loaded more quickly.

In summary, most aftermarket filters allowed larger particulates through, most quickly loaded to the point of greater-than-OEM restriction, most produced negligible if any improvement in power or fuel economy, and most produced more rapidly declining performance because of the rate of loading to much greater than factory resistance. That makes sense if you think about it, as all of the big auto manufacturers have the benefit of infinitely larger R&D budgets and all the automotive engineering equipment and talent money can buy. Ford or GM could buy or sell a K&N, Banks, or AFE with their couch change. If one of these little companies actually stumbled on a magic key to improved engine longevity, fuel economy, and horsepower GM or Ford would have bought them lock, stock, and barrel long ago. Now add Toyota, Volkswagon/Porsche, Honda, Mercedes, and all the other enormous vehicle manufacturing companies, several of which have been around more than 100 years, always trying to improve power and fuel economy.

K&N has been around 5+ decades, but consider the number of more recent arrivals that have magically outsmarted the entire automotive industry by designing better, simpler, solutions for cheap power and improved fuel economy… Again and again, small teams of poorly funded, poorly resourced, guys are designing better intake and filter solutions than the brilliant engineers at Ford, Subaru, Porsche, Cummins, Dodge, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, Jaguar, Ferrari, and GM could design with 100,000 times the combined resources, facilities, time, talent, and R&D budgets. If that seems a little unlikely, it should.

As it turns out, the CAI game is about 98.5% hype too — and the tiny part that isn’t hype isn’t applicable to daily drivers.

The research I referenced got me about 90% of the way to overcoming my bias in favor of CAI, but my brother and I had been installing these on our trucks forever, so we decided to test the performance of our two trucks, a Ford F-350 Powerstroke and a Ram 3500 Cummins, with their cold air intake, and after reinstalling the factory air boxes and filters. I was convinced the performance of both would decline noticeably when we reinstalled the factory parts, and I thought they had, maybe because they were noticeably quieter without being able to hear the turbos spool (which I missed). Unfortunately, any performance change was within my margin of timing error. That was pretty discouraging for both of us, because we’d spent so much on these filters/systems over the years.

As to the value of the “cold air” in this context, the answer is near zero.

Significantly colder air is denser, so it does contain more oxygen by volume. That can make a significant difference at the drag strip, but the small temperature differential achieved by CAI systems has an insignificant effect on an engine with a turbo, as forced induction achieves a multiple of the density effect of the slightly cooler air.

The final nail in the free-flowing-intake argument came when the engineers did before and after dyno tests on engines with OEM filters and no filters at all. The dyno lines tracked on top of each other like they were traced.

The amount of air needed to optimize combustion efficiency/performance is well known to all of the big engine manufacturers. Even small independent race teams have had that nailed for decades. When massive amounts of fuel and boost are flowed to build massive power, more air is needed, but most of us aren’t doing that with our trucks, and the calculations I saw for the 7.3 Powerstroke, and 5.9 Cummins made it clear that the factory air filters wouldn’t be a limiting factor until somewhere well north of 500 hp which, at that time, was a long way off. Every modification package my brother and I built included cold air intake, but, as it turns out, it was the programmed fueling rate and boost that drove the diesel performance improvements. At the fueling rates were were actually burning, the CAI and 4-inch exhaust was irrelevant. More air flow than OEM filter would allow might have become necessary if we tried to push closer to 750 hp or more, but below 500 hp the factory filters and aftermarket clones (Fram) were fine, while protecting the engines better and requiring less frequent maintenance.

Do CAI make sense on our daily driver Trucks/jeeps/cars? Nope. Even if they bought another 20 horsepower, and they don’t, it just wouldn’t matter, and it definitely wouldn’t be worth the cost, maintenance hassle, or risk of larger particulate pass-through, but to show that I’m not above continuing to make stupid decisions, I installed the S&B CAI on my Jeep. I liked the hood scoops and I thought I’d enjoy the sound. I’ve seen zero improvement in performance or fuel economy, of course, but the sound makes me feelfaster! And now I’m stuck with regular maintenance, more expensive filters, and the inability to replace the filter with anything but S&B. I hope they stay in business…
 

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That said that cooler air from outside the engine compartment is denser, and therefore contains more oxygen by volume than the hot air under the hood, so the engine will make more power if it’s fed outside air. I bought that one too.
Well....that's 100% true.

n summary, most aftermarket filters allowed larger particulates through,
That's 100% true ....with SOME aftermarket intake filters and systems. K&N got a REAL bad wrap for "dusting" turbos. There was way too much article intake through to the turbo trashed the compressor wheels and seals.

That makes sense if you think about it, as all of the big auto manufacturers have the benefit of infinitely larger R&D budgets and all the automotive engineering equipment and talent money can buy. Ford or GM could buy or sell a K&N, Banks, or AFE with their couch change. If one of these little companies actually stumbled on a magic key to improved engine longevity, fuel economy, and horsepower GM or Ford would have bought them lock, stock, and barrel long ago.
Well you are wrong here....sorry but WAY wrong. My best proof of that is looking to the Ford 6.0L motor and trucks. Now we are talking intakes and filters. Guess WHO made the intake filter for the 6.0L trucks??? Donaldson of course. Not owned by Ford. Not in any way. So while your thinking is reasonably true....Ford got with Donaldson, found one of the best filtration media producers, gave them the specs, got them under contract to make the OEM intake filters. So....your thinking isn't wrong...but it's not gospel either.


Here's the BEST part about CAI on the current 6.7L motors. The liquid-to-air CAC that helps maintain the IAT at the manifold at a range of like 10-15*F over OAT. Which tells me one thing....air FLOW through the system is more important. Smooth out the flow, less restrictions, better performance.

So as a full Pusher Piping w/S&B open element user...I confess....It makes a difference when you have better FLOW.
 
When you strip away the name Gale Banks, then look at the talking points, then look at the product and it's design....you see the talking points prove ALL aftermarket products (for the most part) are doing the same thing. S&B has the same product points as Banks....yet some slick talking makes one better over the other? NAH....If I could talk you though the intake videos you would start laughing at Gale for being SO obvious he's trying SO hard.

Sure Banks has made some great stuff......why have they seemed to drop the ball in so many products they produced over the years???
To add to this, all I’ll say is if people were into building diesels around the 08 mark ish I’m bad with time he pulled some shady ass shit crying to the government (while HE bad contracts with the government) and threw a pile of tuners under the buss and got them run out of business, I for one will never forgive this
 
COLD AIR INTAKE RANT:
In the late 1970s I saw a K&N display at a local 4x4 store. The display was a clear plexiglass box with a fan in it that blew air up a plexiglass tube about ten inches tall. When the K&N filter was inserted between the fan and the tube a ping pong ball floated easily in the middle of the tube, but if an OEM air filter was inserted the air flow got choked off and the ball fell to the bottom. The sign in front said “Let your engine breathe for better power and fuel economy!”

Below the K&N display there was a lengthy explanation of parasitic energy loss from the engine having to fight to suck against the resistance to get the air it needs. I’d used early K&N filters on my dirt bikes, mostly because everybody told me they would make more power, so I bought this line of reasoning hook, line, and sinker. As it turns out, that was all complete bullshit, but millions of dollars in marketing and race sponsorship has kept them swimming in money. (When you rebuild your engines after every race, and you’re being paid millions in sponsorship fees, you can afford to worry less about filter effectiveness.)

Years later the CAI — “cold air intake”— sales pitch was added… That said that cooler air from outside the engine compartment is denser, and therefore contains more oxygen by volume than the hot air under the hood, so the engine will make more power if it’s fed outside air. I bought that one too.

As it turns out, that’s 99% crap too. When I finally saw all the data I discovered I had spent thousands of dollars over almost twenty years installing various air filtration systems that did zero good (and some bad) for my trucks and jeeps.

My brother and I ran Powerstroke (me) and Cummins diesels (him) for more than 35 years, and we spent a lot of time and money on tuners, cold air intakes, bigger turbos, and other mods between about 1985 and 2008. Near the end of that time Ford, GM, and Cummins diesels were developing much more power from the factory, and the diesel forums were posting extensive research on mods. An engineer on one of those forums put together a comprehensive series of tests that measured rear wheel horsepower before and after the installation of various CAI options. He also measured filter efficacy, loading, and air flow by measuring initial resistance (with new filters), resistance after loading, and the size of particulates that passed through the filters when new and at various stages of loading. The power and economy loss to OEM filter resistance was, at best, negligible — and even when small improvements appeared, they weren’t repeated or sustained, as the filters loaded more quickly.

In summary, most aftermarket filters allowed larger particulates through, most quickly loaded to the point of greater-than-OEM restriction, most produced negligible if any improvement in power or fuel economy, and most produced more rapidly declining performance because of the rate of loading to much greater than factory resistance. That makes sense if you think about it, as all of the big auto manufacturers have the benefit of infinitely larger R&D budgets and all the automotive engineering equipment and talent money can buy. Ford or GM could buy or sell a K&N, Banks, or AFE with their couch change. If one of these little companies actually stumbled on a magic key to improved engine longevity, fuel economy, and horsepower GM or Ford would have bought them lock, stock, and barrel long ago. Now add Toyota, Volkswagon/Porsche, Honda, Mercedes, and all the other enormous vehicle manufacturing companies, several of which have been around more than 100 years, always trying to improve power and fuel economy.

K&N has been around 5+ decades, but consider the number of more recent arrivals that have magically outsmarted the entire automotive industry by designing better, simpler, solutions for cheap power and improved fuel economy… Again and again, small teams of poorly funded, poorly resourced, guys are designing better intake and filter solutions than the brilliant engineers at Ford, Subaru, Porsche, Cummins, Dodge, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, Jaguar, Ferrari, and GM could design with 100,000 times the combined resources, facilities, time, talent, and R&D budgets. If that seems a little unlikely, it should.

As it turns out, the CAI game is about 98.5% hype too — and the tiny part that isn’t hype isn’t applicable to daily drivers.

The research I referenced got me about 90% of the way to overcoming my bias in favor of CAI, but my brother and I had been installing these on our trucks forever, so we decided to test the performance of our two trucks, a Ford F-350 Powerstroke and a Ram 3500 Cummins, with their cold air intake, and after reinstalling the factory air boxes and filters. I was convinced the performance of both would decline noticeably when we reinstalled the factory parts, and I thought they had, maybe because they were noticeably quieter without being able to hear the turbos spool (which I missed). Unfortunately, any performance change was within my margin of timing error. That was pretty discouraging for both of us, because we’d spent so much on these filters/systems over the years.

As to the value of the “cold air” in this context, the answer is near zero.

Significantly colder air is denser, so it does contain more oxygen by volume. That can make a significant difference at the drag strip, but the small temperature differential achieved by CAI systems has an insignificant effect on an engine with a turbo, as forced induction achieves a multiple of the density effect of the slightly cooler air.

The final nail in the free-flowing-intake argument came when the engineers did before and after dyno tests on engines with OEM filters and no filters at all. The dyno lines tracked on top of each other like they were traced.

The amount of air needed to optimize combustion efficiency/performance is well known to all of the big engine manufacturers. Even small independent race teams have had that nailed for decades. When massive amounts of fuel and boost are flowed to build massive power, more air is needed, but most of us aren’t doing that with our trucks, and the calculations I saw for the 7.3 Powerstroke, and 5.9 Cummins made it clear that the factory air filters wouldn’t be a limiting factor until somewhere well north of 500 hp which, at that time, was a long way off. Every modification package my brother and I built included cold air intake, but, as it turns out, it was the programmed fueling rate and boost that drove the diesel performance improvements. At the fueling rates were were actually burning, the CAI and 4-inch exhaust was irrelevant. More air flow than OEM filter would allow might have become necessary if we tried to push closer to 750 hp or more, but below 500 hp the factory filters and aftermarket clones (Fram) were fine, while protecting the engines better and requiring less frequent maintenance.

Do CAI make sense on our daily driver Trucks/jeeps/cars? Nope. Even if they bought another 20 horsepower, and they don’t, it just wouldn’t matter, and it definitely wouldn’t be worth the cost, maintenance hassle, or risk of larger particulate pass-through, but to show that I’m not above continuing to make stupid decisions, I installed the S&B CAI on my Jeep. I liked the hood scoops and I thought I’d enjoy the sound. I’ve seen zero improvement in performance or fuel economy, of course, but the sound makes me feelfaster! And now I’m stuck with regular maintenance, more expensive filters, and the inability to replace the filter with anything but S&B. I hope they stay in business…
I remember reading some info on either cumminsforum or pavementsucks back in the early 2000’s on this topic. I remember how bad the high flow filters back then filtered. I also remember dusted engines and dodge denying warranty claims for people using oiled filters in cummins trucks back in the early 2000’s. I only run stock motorcraft filters.

Btw I have a 170 montauk, what whaler do you have?
 
I remember reading some info on either cumminsforum or pavementsucks back in the early 2000’s on this topic. I remember how bad the high flow filters back then filtered. I also remember dusted engines and dodge denying warranty claims for people using oiled filters in cummins trucks back in the early 2000’s. I only run stock motorcraft filters.

Btw I have a 170 montauk, what whaler do you have?
Yes. Cumminsforum or dieselpower were likely sites, as I spent a lot of time on both at that time. The engineer who did the research had the screen name “Spicer”. He had to work out a deal with a company that had the necessary equipment and instrumentation to do the research (which was extensive). His final product was a large, data-rich document that ranked all the filters he tested in five or six categories. I haven’t been able to find it again.

I had a 17’ Montauk in the early 90s. Great boat. My last whaler was a 27’ Outrage with twin Yamaha 225s. Very salty, trustworthy, offshore boat for its size, but its 10’ beam made it a hassle to tow legally. I love the boats, but can’t afford to pay the prices the bigger ones demand new, so restoring older ones became a hobby. My next one will probably by a 24 or 25 foot outrage/guardian. I’ll restore it to like new — and then my kids will inherit it. :ROFLMAO:
 
Well....that's 100% true.


That's 100% true ....with SOME aftermarket intake filters and systems. K&N got a REAL bad wrap for "dusting" turbos. There was way too much article intake through to the turbo trashed the compressor wheels and seals.


Well you are wrong here....sorry but WAY wrong. My best proof of that is looking to the Ford 6.0L motor and trucks. Now we are talking intakes and filters. Guess WHO made the intake filter for the 6.0L trucks??? Donaldson of course. Not owned by Ford. Not in any way. So while your thinking is reasonably true....Ford got with Donaldson, found one of the best filtration media producers, gave them the specs, got them under contract to make the OEM intake filters. So....your thinking isn't wrong...but it's not gospel either.


Here's the BEST part about CAI on the current 6.7L motors. The liquid-to-air CAC that helps maintain the IAT at the manifold at a range of like 10-15*F over OAT. Which tells me one thing....air FLOW through the system is more important. Smooth out the flow, less restrictions, better performance.

So as a full Pusher Piping w/S&B open element user...I confess....It makes a difference when you have better FLOW.
I think we agree on some things, but FLOW is only a concern if it is the constraint that’s limiting performance. If the OEM filter already allows plenty of air to optimize performance, making it possible to FLOW more air achieves nothing. That point was made well by the dyno results showing no significant performance difference when the engines ran with no filters at all.

The biggest twenty auto manufacturers don’t have a lock on every great innovation, and they do routinely contract with other companies for a wide variety of other products — think turbos, fuel pumps, tires, shocks, seats, stereos, etc. But that makes my point. If their testing showed that Banks/K&N/S&B/AFE or others had come up with the miracle answer to achieve free improvements in power and fuel economy with no harm to the engines, they’d buy the little companies or contract with them, so ALL their vehicles would be equipped with the better filters at the factory.

The magic combination of more power AND more fuel economy AND engine durability is the holy grail for every vehicle manufacturer on the planet. If the lofty claims of the aftermarket CAI venders were true we’d see some evidence of it from the manufacturers, and they’d be bragging about it in their advertising.

After reading Spicer’s report I started paying much more attention to OEM filters on everything, including farm tractors, which live their lives inside clouds of dust, and high performance cars from Porsche, Ferrari, Ford, Chevy, etc. back then anyway, their filters generally looked more like the GM “ACDelco” pleated paper, than the S&B cone on my jeep.
 
Well....that's 100% true.
(Talking about cooler air having more oxygen content by volume)

Yes it’s true. Like all good deceptions, their argument contains some truth. The deceptive part is what they don’t say — the part about the temperature-density differential being insignificant to the point of irrelevance on motors with turbos or superchargers, both of which achieve a multiple of the air density improvement achieved by pilling in air that’s slightly cooler.
 
Not sure how people lost fuel economy with CAI. Unless they are stepping on gas to get that intake sound. I’m a fan of AFE, banks, and s&b for CAI
Can’t go wrong with any of them
Anything with a turbo will benefit from CAI, natural aspersion not so much without tune and exhaust
I’ve always put CAI and exhaust on all my trucks but it wasn’t until ford came out with the ecoboost that I really felt the difference in power with it.
 
Hahaha! I did laugh at that.

I think it’s pretty apparent the difference between the banks CAI and S&B CAI based on S&Bs required reducer so they dont interfere with the MAF sensor. Banks usually locks in a patent that enables them to stay ahead

Btw — I own and sell both brands. I have S&B parts on my trucks currently.

I do think it’s worth nothing which of these companies has had OEM / MIL contracts. You land those based in engineering… not marketing. GM defense and Oshkosh don’t care if you market well or not.

I am 100% in agreement that they do now how to market well and it certainly helps their case.
 
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the difference between the banks CAI and S&B CAI based on S&Bs required reducer so they dont interfere with the MAF sensor.
So can you measure the entrance on both systems?? Seems to me the Banks system is just as small (as S&B uses a reducer) at the point where the filter is attached.
I will say once a user goes on GLP-1s you can remove the reducer from the S&B kit.

has had OEM / MIL contracts.
The past is the past. Which one has contracts right now??

If I were to develop a 6.7L filter system I'd baes it off the old 6.0L filter with the blue media from Donaldson. That filter/media couldn't be beat.
 
So can you measure the entrance on both systems?? Seems to me the Banks system is just as small (as S&B uses a reducer) at the point where the filter is attached.
I will say once a user goes on GLP-1s you can remove the reducer from the S&B kit.


The past is the past. Which one has contracts right now??

If I were to develop a 6.7L filter system I'd baes it off the old 6.0L filter with the blue media from Donaldson. That filter/media couldn't be beat.
I remember a ford oem high filtration kit with a large Donaldson filter that was available at the dealer for the 7.3.
 
So....do I get one or not??? :ROFLMAO:
what I'm inferring from the comments is a HELL NO!

I currently have the AFE, I'm gonna remove it and inspect for turbo dust. That will tell what I need to know for now.
The plan is to install the Pusher upgrade. The question now is can the OEM setup handle the Pusher upgrade? Any thoughts?
 
what I'm inferring from the comments is a HELL NO!

I currently have the AFE, I'm gonna remove it and inspect for turbo dust. That will tell what I need to know for now.
The plan is to install the Pusher upgrade. The question now is can the OEM setup handle the Pusher upgrade? Any thoughts?
That's where I'm at now! What can I do to help this thing breathe better??
 
That's where I'm at now! What can I do to help this thing breathe better??
what I'm inferring from the comments is a HELL NO!

I currently have the AFE, I'm gonna remove it and inspect for turbo dust. That will tell what I need to know for now.
The plan is to install the Pusher upgrade. The question now is can the OEM setup handle the Pusher upgrade? Any thoughts?

I'm running the full Pusher Piping kit (intake, hot pipe, cold pipe, manifold) along with the S&B open air element. No issues, no complaints, working just fine. I know it's subjective to each person but I'm not complaining about how my truck/motor runs.

The open-air element S&B along with watching my CTS3 to read intakes temps says there's NO concerns with "under hood hot air". Yes, you will see a intake temp rise while sitting still. Once the truck is moving the under hood temps are flushed out allowing the outside air to the intake. Not to mention the CAC is the one in control of the intake air temperature getting to the cylinders.

There are a few other running the Pusher Piping kits, along with their choice of intake kits.
 
I'm running the full Pusher Piping kit (intake, hot pipe, cold pipe, manifold) along with the S&B open air element. No issues, no complaints, working just fine. I know it's subjective to each person but I'm not complaining about how my truck/motor runs.

The open-air element S&B along with watching my CTS3 to read intakes temps says there's NO concerns with "under hood hot air". Yes, you will see a intake temp rise while sitting still. Once the truck is moving the under hood temps are flushed out allowing the outside air to the intake. Not to mention the CAC is the one in control of the intake air temperature getting to the cylinders.

There are a few other running the Pusher Piping kits, along with their choice of intake kits.
Do these void the warranty?
 
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