2022 F250 Tremor Battery Time

[Canyon Trekker]

I can show the data if anyone likes. It ain't brain science. Or rocket surgery.

Well stated. Remarkably, some are forgetting the simple science. The internal resistance of the battery, and added series resistance, dictates the amount of current draw with a constant voltage. The total resistance varies with heat, age, state of charge, type and state of health of materials used internal to the battery, and connection resistance of the charger. You cannot predict, nor can you "dial in" the amount of current the battery will draw at any given time with a fixed voltage.

There's more to that statement but requires much more space to spell it all out. One example; if the alternator was able to be adjusted to say 14.9 volts, (via the regulator) that would change the amount of current the battery will draw with the exact same conditions. If it was changed to 14.5, it would draw less current. AGMs are safe at 14.7V.

When new, the battery's internal resistance can be as low as <2 milliohms for an AGM to around 12 milliohms. (12 is a bad state unless it is an FLA) But this does not work in a formula of ohms law exclusively to calculate current because you also have a voltage level at the terminals to begin with that change as the battery conditions change. This is why the current will rapidly decrease as the battery charges and will charge faster due to the low internal resistance.

However, the total resistance can be calculated by measuring the current draw with a known measured voltage and clamp on current probe (or shunt). You cannot "push" current if you have a fixed voltage. You draw current based on the above resistance statistics. And every battery will be slightly different. Not just in manufacturer but from battery to battery.

Also, some battery testers will give you a false indication of charge capacity if the connection is not good because it will introduce a resistance in the clips.

 

[The Evil Twin]

Well stated. Remarkably, some are forgetting the simple science. The internal resistance of the battery, and added series resistance, dictates the amount of current draw with a constant voltage. The total resistance varies with heat, age, state of charge, type and state of health of materials used internal to the battery, and connection resistance of the charger. You cannot predict, nor can you "dial in" the amount of current the battery will draw at any given time with a fixed voltage.

There's more to that statement but requires much more space to spell it all out. One example; if the alternator was able to be adjusted to say 14.9 volts, (via the regulator) that would change the amount of current the battery will draw with the exact same conditions. If it was changed to 14.5, it would draw less current. AGMs are safe at 14.7V.

When new, the battery's internal resistance can be as low as <2 milliohms for an AGM to around 12 milliohms. (12 is a bad state unless it is an FLA) But this does not work in a formula of ohms law exclusively to calculate current because you also have a voltage level at the terminals to begin with that change as the battery conditions change. This is why the current will rapidly decrease as the battery charges and will charge faster due to the low internal resistance.

However, the total resistance can be calculated by measuring the current draw with a known measured voltage and clamp on current probe (or shunt). You cannot "push" current if you have a fixed voltage. You draw current based on the above resistance statistics. And every battery will be slightly different. Not just in manufacturer but from battery to battery.

Also, some battery testers will give you a false indication of charge capacity if the connection is not good because it will introduce a resistance in the clips.

Great explanation! For those that like Ikea instructions (myself included)...

 

[Hunterman]

Great explanation! For those that like Ikea instructions (myself included)...

View attachment 234986

It’s to early for math with letters

 

[majorbison]

remember when optima batteries were super good? i'd gotten anywhere from 5-7 years out of several of them. i sure miss those days

 

[Hunterman]

remember when optima batteries were super good? i'd gotten anywhere from 5-7 years out of several of them. i sure miss those days

It wasn’t just Oprima batteries that lasted. It seems like my first 2 cars I had for 5+ years I don’t remember ever changing batteries. Now it’s 2 to maybe 3 years. Is it the batteries or is it all the fancy electronics and crap they put in the cars that cause them to wear out faster ???

I believe it’s the reason Costco stopped the 3 year free replacement policy and went to a prorated policy. Maybe it was Costco or maybe it was interstate that did it I don’t know

 

[The Evil Twin]

It wasn’t just Oprima batteries that lasted. It seems like my first 2 cars I had for 5+ years I don’t remember ever changing batteries. Now it’s 2 to maybe 3 years. Is it the batteries or is it all the fancy electronics and crap they put in the cars that cause them to wear out faster ???

I believe it’s the reason Costco stopped the 3 year free replacement policy and went to a prorated policy. Maybe it was Costco or maybe it was interstate that did it I don’t know

I'm going with it being the vehicles fault. My 2019 Kymco scooter has the original battery. R6 batteries are around 7 years. 2001 Kawasaki is going on 10.
Granted, none of them see a usage like a daily driver.

 

[majorbison]

i mean even my race cars that sat for months at time had optimas that lasted a long time. i was told it was quality of materials used that changed but who knows or who will actually tell

 

[Rolind]

So I went down this rabbit hole of agm charge profiles and the charge profile for my truck when my factory batteries s*** the bed. I think that all AGMs prefer a different charge profile and I could never find any info for the truck’s charge profile when on FLA or AGMS. I finally just bought 2 Motorcraft AGMs partially with my ford pass points and called it a day. I am used to travel trailer solar charge controllers and converters and batteries where everything is very transparent. Not the case with truck or car systems. If anyone has more info, please chime in.

 

[Canyon Trekker]

So I went down this rabbit hole of agm charge profiles and the charge profile for my truck when my factory batteries s*** the bed. I think that all AGMs prefer a different charge profile and I could never find any info for the truck’s charge profile when on FLA or AGMS. I finally just bought 2 Motorcraft AGMs partially with my ford pass points and called it a day. I am used to travel trailer solar charge controllers and converters and batteries where everything is very transparent. Not the case with truck or car systems. If anyone has more info, please chime in.

This is the million-dollar observation! (Glad you brough this up.) The truck does not use an AGM profile for charging. Nor does it use any profile conducive to a maintenance scheme for any battery. It replaces the energy expelled during the start whereby the battery will dictate how much current it will draw, based on its own internal resistance and any resistance leading up to it. (Wires, connection, etc.) With a fixed voltage and variable resistance, if the R goes up, the I goes down. If the R goes down, the I goes up. Ohms law. See @The Evil Twin PIE chart above for the math. That's PIE with a V. (Geek joke)

I have also researched this and found no vehicle manufacturer lists a "profile" for the automobile simply because, I believe, there isn't one. The vehicle system is so different from a "charger" that it would be impossible to go through the stages that a genuine charger will go through. When battery manufacturers talk about their charge profiles for different batteries, they always refer to an external charger profile.

The truck has a simple scheme. It charges at the max rate it can and solely dependent on the batteries internal resistance, and a fixed regulated voltage, usually at 14.7 volts or whatever the upper end of the generator is at. Then it changes and floats at 13.6 volts when it's full. This is not a charge profile for any lead acid battery let alone an AGM but, in all cases, will replace what is used so long as it is run long enough to fill it back up and the batteries health is good. (SOC and SOH) This is why you should use a maintainer (with a real AGM charge profile) if you only run your truck intermittently and have AGM batteries, the vehicle may not have time to re-charge a depleted battery with short start and stops. It will also prolong the life of the batteries if plugged into a maintainer.

In experimentation, I have only observed approximately 20-25A charge rates (with AGM batteries installed) immediately after the start. It then tapers off to a much less charge rate as the voltage of the battery almost instantly regains close to full capacity. (~14.7 volts at the terminals.)

And the frosting on the cake is this: I believe changing the BMS from FLA to AGM is for a health check, not a charge profile. The health check has different values for an AGM versus the FLA. So, if you change to AGM batteries and don't update the BCM health profile, the trucks computer may simply "not" tell you if the health of the battery is lower than ideal (60% SOH) since the FLA health signals would still be in tolerance. But this will soon become obvious if your truck doesn't start. Most people don't replace the battery if the computer tells them to. If it indicates bad, they have them checked for SOC and SOH. Then they replace them if they are indeed bad. You can do this proactively.

I'm with you, anyone, please show me the statistics otherwise because I can't find them.

 

[S2kstephen]

I'm going with it being the vehicles fault. My 2019 Kymco scooter has the original battery. R6 batteries are around 7 years. 2001 Kawasaki is going on 10.
Granted, none of them see a usage like a daily driver.

+1. I've owned no less than 35+ cars, and some of them were flips, but I've only ever replaced 1 battery in the last 20yrs/35 cars. Shoot, my wife has a 2013 MDX that we bought with 30k (has 151k now) and have never replaced the battery.

So I'm no techy at all, but I do know my 99% of those cars had very limited electronics features, but my 18 KR has has had 3 replacements (and counting) since 2018.

 

[The Evil Twin]

This is the million-dollar observation! (Glad you brough this up.) The truck does not use an AGM profile for charging. Nor does it use any profile conducive to a maintenance scheme for any battery. It replaces the energy expelled during the start whereby the battery will dictate how much current it will draw, based on its own internal resistance and any resistance leading up to it. (Wires, connection, etc.) With a fixed voltage and variable resistance, if the R goes up, the I goes down. If the R goes down, the I goes up. Ohms law. See @The Evil Twin PIE chart above for the math. That's PIE with a V. (Geek joke)

I have also researched this and found no vehicle manufacturer lists a "profile" for the automobile simply because, I believe, there isn't one. The vehicle system is so different from a "charger" that it would be impossible to go through the stages that a genuine charger will go through. When battery manufacturers talk about their charge profiles for different batteries, they always refer to an external charger profile.

The truck has a simple scheme. It charges at the max rate it can and solely dependent on the batteries internal resistance, and a fixed regulated voltage, usually at 14.7 volts or whatever the upper end of the generator is at. Then it changes and floats at 13.6 volts when it's full. This is not a charge profile for any lead acid battery let alone an AGM but, in all cases, will replace what is used so long as it is run long enough to fill it back up and the batteries health is good. (SOC and SOH) This is why you should use a maintainer (with a real AGM charge profile) if you only run your truck intermittently and have AGM batteries, the vehicle may not have time to re-charge a depleted battery with short start and stops. It will also prolong the life of the batteries if plugged into a maintainer.

In experimentation, I have only observed approximately 20-25A charge rates (with AGM batteries installed) immediately after the start. It then tapers off to a much less charge rate as the voltage of the battery almost instantly regains close to full capacity. (~14.7 volts at the terminals.)

And the frosting on the cake is this: I believe changing the BMS from FLA to AGM is for a health check, not a charge profile. The health check has different values for an AGM versus the FLA. So, if you change to AGM batteries and don't update the BCM health profile, the trucks computer may simply "not" tell you if the health of the battery is lower than ideal (60% SOH) since the FLA health signals would still be in tolerance. But this will soon become obvious if your truck doesn't start. Most people don't replace the battery if the computer tells them to. If it indicates bad, they have them checked for SOC and SOH. Then they replace them if they are indeed bad. You can do this proactively.

I'm with you, anyone, please show me the statistics otherwise because I can't

At some point, Ford switched to AGM in the SDs. I guess all they did was flip the switch in the BCM?

 

[Camarox2]

I think Ford switched to AGM batteries either in 2023 or 2024?

 

[Canyon Trekker]

At some point, Ford switched to AGM in the SDs. I guess all they did was flip the switch in the BCM?

This is why I suspect that all they do is change the State of Health monitor. The AGM has a longer health life so the time for the computer to determine "when to replace the battery" is extended. The voltage apparently does not change but the battery resistance certainly will over time.

 

[Optimus🤖]

remember when optima batteries were super good? i'd gotten anywhere from 5-7 years out of several of them. i sure miss those days

Yes sir. I had a yellow and red top. They both lasted at least 5 years. As soon as they went to Mexico, the quality went to shit.

 

[Hunterman]

Yes sir. I had a yellow and red top. They both lasted at least 5 years. As soon as they went to Mexico, the quality went to shit.

I believe it’s called Montezuma's revenge

 

[JTredway]

Well stated. Remarkably, some are forgetting the simple science. The internal resistance of the battery, and added series resistance, dictates the amount of current draw with a constant voltage. The total resistance varies with heat, age, state of charge, type and state of health of materials used internal to the battery, and connection resistance of the charger. You cannot predict, nor can you "dial in" the amount of current the battery will draw at any given time with a fixed voltage.

There's more to that statement but requires much more space to spell it all out. One example; if the alternator was able to be adjusted to say 14.9 volts, (via the regulator) that would change the amount of current the battery will draw with the exact same conditions. If it was changed to 14.5, it would draw less current. AGMs are safe at 14.7V.

When new, the battery's internal resistance can be as low as <2 milliohms for an AGM to around 12 milliohms. (12 is a bad state unless it is an FLA) But this does not work in a formula of ohms law exclusively to calculate current because you also have a voltage level at the terminals to begin with that change as the battery conditions change. This is why the current will rapidly decrease as the battery charges and will charge faster due to the low internal resistance.

However, the total resistance can be calculated by measuring the current draw with a known measured voltage and clamp on current probe (or shunt). You cannot "push" current if you have a fixed voltage. You draw current based on the above resistance statistics. And every battery will be slightly different. Not just in manufacturer but from battery to battery.

Also, some battery testers will give you a false indication of charge capacity if the connection is not good because it will introduce a resistance in the clips.

Idk if it's been asked but I gotta ask, dude how and why do you know so much Electrical stuff? Are you EE? Or just some guy that likes to read a lot of stuff and figure it out yourself? Any way don't mean to pry just always in awe at the background and ability to explain to knuckle draggers like myself with crayons and paint by numbers. Kinda cool and wild that there seems to be no reason to change to AGMs in ForScan other than potentially SOC/SOH.

I was going to ask, but finished reading all the posts here first ,if there was any signs or way to check to see if there is a difference in the profiles but it doesn't seem like it?

 

[Ol'Hickory'sParot]

Got them all changed out and the computer reset worked great. Thanks for all the help.


Also had a question about ford battery warranty. They told me my batteries were out of warranty but when I pulled them out they still had stickers showing they were replaced 2 years ago which I don’t show on any of my paperwork. Before I turn these in for core refund. Would they replace them or is it like the other places you get 36 month on first batteries and 36-x on the replacements??

 

[Canyon Trekker]

Idk if it's been asked but I gotta ask, dude how and why do you know so much Electrical stuff? Are you EE? Or just some guy that likes to read a lot of stuff and figure it out yourself? Any way don't mean to pry just always in awe at the background and ability to explain to knuckle draggers like myself with crayons and paint by numbers. Kinda cool and wild that there seems to be no reason to change to AGMs in ForScan other than potentially SOC/SOH.

I was going to ask, but finished reading all the posts here first ,if there was any signs or way to check to see if there is a difference in the profiles but it doesn't seem like it?

Thanks for the compliments! I was a technician/engineer in an engineering/maintenance department of one of the biggest electronics companies in the world working with EEs and other brainiacs. I worked on the maintenance side of high-end test equipment for more than 50 years. I also helped develop systems for testing unique products working with automation and micromechanical stuff. Retired now but still like to keep my nose in the technical stuff as it progresses. I read a lot when I'm looking for answers to questions that I don't know. Keeps the brain juice moving. With my background and experience, I can usually weed out the BS that is sometimes placed on the internet channels. Or at least see holes in the explanations.

As for the charging profiles, I cannot find anywhere that talks about specifics in an automobiles difference between an AGM and FLA. The only thing I see is charge profiles related to external chargers which do have different profiles, and the simple high charging current to a 13.5-volt float status in the vehicles charge status. There may be a difference in the way the computer monitors the battery health based on time, which makes sense, but no one talks about it. And it isn't important other than letting the driver know if the battery is to be changed based on time. This would be different for an AGM to FLA. It can't possibly be doing a full test of the health since there are multiple steps to do this and requires a disconnect from the system to determine the real health level.

Like you, I welcome anyone to come up with something that will explain the difference. Electronically, it doesn't make any sense.

 

[Tabonds74]

My ‘22 6.7 battery died and I opted for the X2 AGM for $399 from batteries plus a few weeks ago. They have 20% off right now which is about my luck.

 

[Ol'Hickory'sParot]

Don’t worry it tops out at $30 per order.