Newbie Towing Question...Can I Yank It?

[Skibum1681]

To stay below CDL you max trailer GVWR is only 14,500# regardless if its a bumper/pintle or goose neck. You'll need to look at excavators in the 3.5t-4t class at most. The trailer is going to weigh 3500#-5000# which only leaves ~9,000# for the machine/attachment weight.

KX033
U35
KX040 is probably too heavy

 

[oops]

I spoke with Vermonster but sharing my opinions, which are fairly inline with Skibums, here for others considering the same.

As some noted, the most significant limiting factor here is licensing which, for all practical purposes, reduces the maximum combined weight of our vehicle with a trailer to 26000# in every state. It's very difficult to find a consistently implemented exception to this that would be applicable to anyone here who hadn't already purchased their vehicle through a commercial or agricultural entity.

Given that limitation, the maximum trailer weight of each Tremor configuration is as follows:

• F-250 Gas: 16,000#
• F-250 Diesel: 15,200#
• F-350 Gas: 14,700#
• F-350 Diesel: 14,500#

These numbers remain the same no matter whether you're pulling a conventional trailer or a gooseneck.

And, yes, these numbers are counterintuitive in suggesting the 250 Gas has the most towing capacity. Which, from a legal perspective, is correct: if you don't have a commercial drivers license (and if you're not loading so heavy on the tongue/pin as to go over the payload limit on your door jamb.)

Working backwards from this constraint, the math is fairly simple:

14500# (the legal gross combine weight limit of his diesel Tremor) - 12478# (the listed operating weight of a Kubota U55-4) = 2022# (the maximum available weight for a trailer that itself has a GVWR equal to or greater than the weight of the excavator)

And since most trailers that can carry over 12500# themselves weigh well over 2000#, this equation becomes very difficult to resolve positively.

The only possible solution is to pair a U55-4 with an all aluminum bumper pull equipment trailer. There are several on the market with a ~12000# payload capacity and 14000# GVWR that weigh under 2000#. However, I don't know of a specific model that meets the specific constraints and even if one exists (I'd wager one does) this would be cutting it too close for comfort, IMO.

The best solution would be to go for a lower weight excavator. The KX040 (10210#) is, IMO, the best option for our trucks (and most mini-excavator use cases), and this is reflected in the popularity of that model in the market.

In my specific case I resolved this by pairing a Kubota U48-5 (11531#) with a gas F-250, and a conventional 16000# GVW / 4000# equipment trailer.

So modifying the equation above, for my scenario, I get:

16000# - 11531# = 4469# - 4000# = 469# (the amount I'm under the licensed weight limitation.)

Considering that the operating weight of the excavator factors in a 165# operator, this means that I have ~634# of excess capacity: just enough for an excavator bucket or two.

But even this is no panacea as there are additional legal factors to consider. However, I'm personally comfortable with this simple logic (and the accompanying risks) for occasional movement of my machines. Others risk tolerances may vary.

 

[Modman]

I spoke with Vermonster but sharing my opinions, which are fairly inline with Skibums, here for others considering the same.

As some noted, the most significant limiting factor here is licensing which, for all practical purposes, reduces the maximum combined weight of our vehicle with a trailer to 26000# in every state. It's very difficult to find a consistently implemented exception to this that would be applicable to anyone here who hadn't already purchased their vehicle through a commercial or agricultural entity.

Given that limitation, the maximum trailer weight of each Tremor configuration is as follows:

• F-250 Gas: 16,000#
• F-250 Diesel: 15,200#
• F-350 Gas: 14,700#
• F-350 Diesel: 14,500#

These numbers remain the same no matter whether you're pulling a conventional trailer or a gooseneck.

And, yes, these numbers are counterintuitive in suggesting the 250 Gas has the most towing capacity. Which, from a legal perspective, is correct: if you don't have a commercial drivers license (and if you're not loading so heavy on the tongue/pin as to go over the payload limit on your door jamb.)

Working backwards from this constraint, the math is fairly simple:

14500# (the legal gross combine weight limit of his diesel Tremor) - 12478# (the listed operating weight of a Kubota U55-4) = 2022# (the maximum available weight for a trailer that itself has a GVWR equal to or greater than the weight of the excavator)

And since most trailers that can carry over 12500# themselves weigh well over 2000#, this equation becomes very difficult to resolve positively.

The only possible solution is to pair a U55-4 with an all aluminum bumper pull equipment trailer. There are several on the market with a ~12000# payload capacity and 14000# GVWR that weigh under 2000#. However, I don't know of a specific model that meets the specific constraints and even if one exists (I'd wager one does) this would be cutting it too close for comfort, IMO.

The best solution would be to go for a lower weight excavator. The KX040 (10210#) is, IMO, the best option for our trucks (and most mini-excavator use cases), and this is reflected in the popularity of that model in the market.

In my specific case I resolved this by pairing a Kubota U48-5 (11531#) with a gas F-250, and a conventional 16000# GVW / 4000# equipment trailer.

So modifying the equation above, for my scenario, I get:

16000# - 11531# = 4469# - 4000# = 469# (the amount I'm under the licensed weight limitation.)

Considering that the operating weight of the excavator factors in a 165# operator, this means that I have ~634# of excess capacity: just enough for an excavator bucket or two.

But even this is no panacea as there are additional legal factors to consider. However, I'm personally comfortable with this simple logic (and the accompanying risks) for occasional movement of my machines. Others risk tolerances may vary.

Nice to hear from you @oops I hope all is well!

 

[A. GoFast582]

If you can hook it, you can pull it with the 6.7.
Payload is a suggestion

 

[Vecman]

Federally, if @Vermonster is using this trailer/excavator for personal use, and does not form an LLC for it's use (which would give the impression it's business use, and therefore commercial), there is no requirement for CDL, DOT number, or anything else. This is a quote straight from the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration "Drivers are required to obtain and hold a CDL if they operate in interstate, intrastate, or foreign commerce AND (emphasis added) drive a vehicle that meets one or more of the classifications of a CMV described below" - so, if over the 26,001 weight threshold, you do meet the vehicle part, but if not used for commerce, you fail the first part. CDL not required.

States vary. Here in Arizona, there are several hoops to jump through. First, 1-ton trucks are required to be registered commercially, whether for commercial or personal use, and declare a max GCWR and pay fees associated with this declaration. If your GCWR is over 26,001, you are required to obtain a CDL unless you meet certain exemptions, even for personal use. However, if for personal use, you still fail the actual commercial vehicle definition at both the State and Federal levels, so no DOT numbers and no trip logs, etc are needed, as you are not a commercial driver.

In Vermont, it says on their website that they follow the Federal guidelines, which would require commercial use AND vehicle weights. @Vermonster, at this time, only potentially meets the weight requirements. But if he's using this for personal use, he does not meet the commercial use part, and is therefore exempt from needing a CDL.

These CDL discussions and really tough, as it will come down to how your State handles this issue, and what exemptions they have in place. It's not just "your GCWR is 26,001+ so you need a CDL"

 

[oops]

Federally, if @Vermonster is using this trailer/excavator for personal use, and does not form an LLC for it's use (which would give the impression it's business use, and therefore commercial), there is no requirement for CDL, DOT number, or anything else. This is a quote straight from the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration "Drivers are required to obtain and hold a CDL if they operate in interstate, intrastate, or foreign commerce AND (emphasis added) drive a vehicle that meets one or more of the classifications of a CMV described below" - so, if over the 26,001 weight threshold, you do meet the vehicle part, but if not used for commerce, you fail the first part. CDL not required.

States vary. Here in Arizona, there are several hoops to jump through. First, 1-ton trucks are required to be registered commercially, whether for commercial or personal use, and declare a max GCWR and pay fees associated with this declaration. If your GCWR is over 26,001, you are required to obtain a CDL unless you meet certain exemptions, even for personal use. However, if for personal use, you still fail the actual commercial vehicle definition at both the State and Federal levels, so no DOT numbers and no trip logs, etc are needed, as you are not a commercial driver.

In Vermont, it says on their website that they follow the Federal guidelines, which would require commercial use AND vehicle weights. @Vermonster, at this time, only potentially meets the weight requirements. But if he's using this for personal use, he does not meet the commercial use part, and is therefore exempt from needing a CDL.

These CDL discussions and really tough, as it will come down to how your State handles this issue, and what exemptions they have in place. It's not just "your GCWR is 26,001+ so you need a CDL"

I think you're probably right that there's enough ambiguity in state and federal language that, once in court, with a good lawyer, you might be able to wiggle out of a squeeze. (Assuming no harm had been done to others in the process.)

That said, there's enough conflicting information that going over 26000# in any state may attract scrutiny of law enforcement who will be interpreting the same information as we have by the side of the road, and ultimately a judge or jury will be doing the same, that I'd personally not risk it in any state unless I absolutely had to. The potential of a significant fine, time in jail, a criminal record, and retrieving ~$200,000 in toys from the impound would ruin any day in the dirt.

 

[oops]

The only possible solution is to pair a U55-4 with an all aluminum bumper pull equipment trailer.

It looks like there are all-aluminum trailer models from Sure-Trac, EBY, and Felling that weigh between 1600# and 2100# and can seemingly be ordered with 16k# axles and down rated to 14500# GVWR -or- found in inventory with 14k# axles and potentially uprated by the dealer to 14500# GVWR. (Typically, steel trailers from all common manufacturers can be uprated by 20% no questions asked. I'm not so sure about aluminum trailers.)

I'm also finding conflicting weight specs on the U55-4. Some as low as 12160# for the rubber/cab model.

So, @Vermonster, if the U55-4 is a special kind of deal (I'm guessing so given the dash 4 is an older model) than I'd contact these trailer manufacturers and see what they can get you, and confirm the actual weight of the unit you're considering. In which case it's likely you can make the math just work.

14500# - 12160# = 2340# = ~250# to 750# of wiggle room.

EBY has a gooseneck model that'd fit the bill: https://www.mheby.com/product/gooseneck-equipment-trailer-16k#Specs

(I'd go bumper pull though, personally.)

 

[Vecman]

I think you're probably right that there's enough ambiguity in state and federal language that, once in court, with a good lawyer, you might be able to wiggle out of a squeeze. (Assuming no harm had been done to others in the process.)

That said, there's enough conflicting information that going over 26000# in any state may attract scrutiny of law enforcement who will be interpreting the same information as we have by the side of the road, and ultimately a judge or jury will be doing the same, that I'd personally not risk it in any state unless I absolutely had to. The potential of a significant fine, time in jail, a criminal record, and retrieving ~$200,000 in toys from the impound would ruin any day in the dirt.

To me, there's no ambiguity. It's a two part requirement, weight being only one of them. I personally like to think that unlabeled, not obvious commercial towing vehicles rarely, if ever, draw LEO attention.
I think this is too extreme of a view. I've tried to apply for DOT numbers - I get denied every time, as I am not using my vehicle for commercial use. The federal sites don't even let me get to the actual application. I've done this as a test. I do not meet criteria. How am I supposed to be held to a legal standard, if I'm being denied that standard?
I spoke to my State trooper buddy here, as I've struggled as to what to do here in AZ. He said he has never pulled over a super duty pulling a tractor, just because it was towing a tractor. I understand this is just a one off opinion, but I'm one of those guys that stands up for my rights, and I'm not afraid to defend them to anyone, especially in something like this. If I'm personally using my truck, and do not fall under any federal regulations, I will stand up for that (this is meant in a respectful tone, not some"I'm a badass" tone". It would be so extremely rare that you would actually be ticketed, let alone sent to court, for saying you were towing a personal use item, and the office disagreed. There would have to be some proof that seemed sketchy that your stuff was personal use.
If @Vermonster does decide to go down the LLC route, then I agree totally that CDL would be needed if over the 26,001# mark. If not, I'd go personal all day and not worry one bit about it

 

[Vecman]

Here in AZ, it's black and white. I 100% should have a CDL, due to my trailer/vehicle GCWR, but I still don't have to follow any other CDL requirements, like sleep/travel logs, inspection reports, etc. as I'm not technically a commercial driver. But when I use that trailer, I am technically breaking the law here. But even then, my buddy said don't stress it. So I'll gamble a bit here, and if pulled over, play stupid. And now that I've waited to get my CDP after Feb 7th, I know fall under all the new entry level driver training (EDLT) rules. That's gonna make it a bit more difficult if I do end up going CDL

 

[oops]

To me, there's no ambiguity. It's a two part requirement, weight being only one of them. I personally like to think that unlabeled, not obvious commercial towing vehicles rarely, if ever, draw LEO attention.
I think this is too extreme of a view. I've tried to apply for DOT numbers - I get denied every time, as I am not using my vehicle for commercial use. The federal sites don't even let me get to the actual application. I've done this as a test. I do not meet criteria. How am I supposed to be held to a legal standard, if I'm being denied that standard?
I spoke to my State trooper buddy here, as I've struggled as to what to do here in AZ. He said he has never pulled over a super duty pulling a tractor, just because it was towing a tractor. I understand this is just a one off opinion, but I'm one of those guys that stands up for my rights, and I'm not afraid to defend them to anyone, especially in something like this. If I'm personally using my truck, and do not fall under any federal regulations, I will stand up for that (this is meant in a respectful tone, not some"I'm a badass" tone". It would be so extremely rare that you would actually be ticketed, let alone sent to court, for saying you were towing a personal use item, and the office disagreed. There would have to be some proof that seemed sketchy that your stuff was personal use.

Where there's ambiguity, IMO, is in the state laws as it pertains to the specific license class you hold. (e.g. what's the legal use of a Class C license.)

What's clearer is what's legal once you do have a CDL.

That said, totally agree that it's to each their own.

 

[Vecman]

Where there's ambiguity, IMO, is in the state laws as it pertains to the specific license class you hold. (e.g. what's the legal use of a Class C license.)

What's clearer is what's legal once you do have a CDL.

That said, totally agree that it's to each their own.

Possibly. I just want to make sure that people understand, at least federally, it's not just simply "you're over 26,001# so you have to have a CDL". It's not that simple.
I spent many hours down this rabbit hole. And then, to have AZ say that yes, over 26,001 you need a class A CDL, but no, you aren't a commercial driver/vehicle. But yes, you're a 1-ton, so you have to register as a commercial vehicle, even for personal use. That's one of the muddiest unclear definitions state-wise I think you'll find.

 

[oops]

Possibly. I just want to make sure that people understand, at least federally, it's not just simply "you're over 26,001# so you have to have a CDL". It's not that simple.
I spent many hours down this rabbit hole. And then, to have AZ say that yes, over 26,001 you need a class A CDL, but no, you aren't a commercial driver/vehicle. But yes, you're a 1-ton, so you have to register as a commercial vehicle, even for personal use. That's one of the muddiest unclear definitions state-wise I think you'll find.

In CA it seems black and white too, until you find that the CHP irregularly publishes their own, internally conflicting, interpretations of the vehicle code that conflict with the DMVs interpretations. (e.g. https://www.chp.ca.gov/CommercialVehicleSectionSite/Documents/IB California Driver License Requirements for Towing Trailers.pdf)

Which, luckily (or unluckily depending on whether I'm a perpetrator or a victim) in my area, leads to LEOs turning a blind eye to non-commercial towing. Unfortunately the opposite is equally likely in other areas.

 

[Vecman]

In CA it seems black and white too, until you find that the CHP irregularly publishes their own, internally conflicting, interpretations of the vehicle code that conflict with the DMVs interpretations. (e.g. https://www.chp.ca.gov/CommercialVehicleSectionSite/Documents/IB California Driver License Requirements for Towing Trailers.pdf)

Which, luckily (or unluckily depending on whether I'm a perpetrator or a victim) in my area, leads to LEOs turning a blind eye to non-commercial towing. Unfortunately the opposite is equally likely in other areas.

That was a fun read..... lol

 

[Vermonster]

@oops and everyone else who has been helping me with this set-up. I have discussed some points of concern with my local Kubota dealer. Just to be safe and save some headache I will be considering the KX040 with the 6 way blade and steel canopy. Weight comes in @10,210 lbs. I am going to go check it out this weekend and see how I like it.

The Kubota dealer does not sell trailers, but does deliver to the door and provides first service on-site. That will give me some extra time for figure things out too. I am not in a hurry for it either, but it seems like this would be great for my Zen garden.

 

[BroncOh]

Welcome back soop!

 

[oops]

Just to be safe and save some headache I will be considering the KX040 with the 6 way blade and steel canopy. Weight comes in @10,210 lbs. I am going to go check it out this weekend and see how I like it.

That's a fantastic machine. There's a reason it's the top seller. And open canopy machines are the most fun to operate, IMO. I always preferred them in the northeast.

 

[Modman]

(I'd go bumper pull though, personally.)

This makes the payload much more manageable as well...

Looks like Mr. @Vermonster has found himself a good middle ground though!

 

[oops]

This makes the payload much more manageable as well...

Exactly. And you get more deck length per pound which gives you even more flexibility with load distribution. And, personally I find I want to pull equipment trailers with a dump truck, a tractor, or a smaller truck from time to time. In which case a gooseneck is decidedly inflexible. I'd prefer a gooseneck if I was routinely hauling at highway speed and I always had other trailers are available for other situations.

 

[greatoppressor]

On the question of CDL or no CDL, I've always found this reference to be helpful.

Do you need a CDL for your new HD truck or RV? The truth

New trucks claiming maximum towing numbers with BIG, BOLD NUMBERS causing a lot of concern about needing a CDL license. Here’s the truth.

pickuptrucktalk.com

"Recreation or commercial towing?
The first place to start with answering the CDL question, is the type of towing you are doing. Let’s say you are towing an RV camper to a lake. Are you doing this to get paid? Then, no, no matter what weight, what state or what truck you are using, you don’t need a CDL.

Let’s go over that again and this is a key question: Are you towing for compensation, as part of a job, to get paid? If the answer is no, then stop reading, tell your friends they are wrong and move along."

I think where people get tripped up on this is that they find the weight information in the law, but they miss that the law is typically structured in a way that you wouldn't even fall under that section if not towing commercially.

-SR-

 

[RedZilla]

Hey there tow experts!

I have the '22 F-350 Tremor with the 11,500lbs option and the 6.7. My yellow door jam is max is 3,048lbs. Am I able to yank this option below...

I am kicking the rubber tracks of a Kubota U55-4 (~13,000lbs) excavator really as a toy. What I mean by "toy" is something I can play on my property with, put in a pond, build some walls, level some land, remove a stump or 2, and burry an occasional horse. I may transport it to and from my parents/in-laws to help with whatever they need done too. I can tell you some of the best therapy I have had was in the cab of an excavator - or even sitting on the tractor. Maybe I will get into some driveway repair and begin an LLC for weekend stuff - who knows.

Next (or likely before - lol) I will be looking at and a trailer. I have the factory Ford 5th wheel / gooseneck set-up from the factory, but also the bumper pull option, obviously. My father-in-law has a 2019 Chevy 2500 Duramax with a bumper option only (not that he could not install the 5th/goose option) so I am thinking of a trailer that we both could use right off the bat - caring is sharing.

I am conscious of the weight, though. The machine plus the trailer will begin adding up quick - and I am not ever looking to exceed the trucks abilities. I am looking to use a flatbed trailer for the excavator, but also to haul my car around that I am restoring - as well as a few other cars.

Any advice before I go out to dealerships?

I leave this for your viewing pleasure. You'll be convinced after watching. You've got a lot more engine than he does.