CDL/Non-CDL Tremor

[Skibum1681]

There is no way I would put 20,000# on a conventional trailer on a single rear wheel F350 (like the towing guide suggests you can). I've had about 18,000# behind the F550 on a pintle hook trailer and you can certainly feel that - pushing the F550 around, and it has a lot of stiff tires.

Gooseneck/5th wheel is a totally different animal.

 

[oops]

There is no way I would put 20,000# on a conventional trailer on a single rear wheel F350 (like the towing guide suggests you can). I've had about 18,000# behind the F550 on a pintle hook trailer and you can certainly feel that - pushing the F550 around, and it has a lot of stiff tires.

Gooseneck/5th wheel is a totally different animal.

10000# pushes these things around.

Honestly I believe the same “divide the marketed capacity by two” logic applies equally to the SRW Super Duty’s as it does to the F150.

At a certain point well below the weight rating you’ll hit the limits of what a 6500# truck and four contact patches can hold back in any sort of suboptimal situation.

 

[Regular Cab Duallies]

May

The internet towing police will be here soon. When they arrive I suggest just grabbing a beer (or what ever your beverage of choice is) and listen to them all. Though I will likely disagree with many of things said, they will likely be speaking the truth - on both sides of the argument.

The little bit that I believe to be true:

I believe there is exemptions for RV's - this is why a 90 year old 90 pound, little old guy can jump in his tandem axle diesel pusher $500,000+ motorhome and cruise the country with out a CDL. I'm not sure if there are any RV limitations but some of the big motorhomes have GVW's in to the 40,000's, possibly more

I believe if you physically weight more than 26,000 you need a CDL - unless its an RV

F250 - GVW 10,000 can tow up to a 16,000# non-RV trailer without a CDL Once the truck GVW sticker Plus the trailer GVW sticker adds up to more than 26,000# a CDL is required - Unless it's an RV

F350 - GVW 11,500 can tow up to 14,500# non-RV trailer without a CDL Once the truck GVW sticker Plus the trailer GVW sticker adds up to more than 26,000# a CDL is required - Unless it's an RV

F550 - GVW 19,500 can tow up to a 10,000# non RV trailer without a CDL. I'm not sure if there is an RV exemption here.

F750 - GVW 25,999 can tow up to a 10,000# non RV trailer without a CDL. I'm not sure if there is an RV exemption here.

With the big trucks in a non-RV situation I think you can still physically only weigh a max 26,000# without a CDL

These trucks (F250/350) don't have the GCWR listed on the door sticker so I don't think you would get a ticket for being outside what the Ford towing guide says is allowable. However the towing guide would likely become an "Exhibit" in a court case should you get in an accident...

The towing guide - in my opinion - is a waste of a piece of paper. It says a 2021 F350 (non Tremor) can conventional tow 20,000# yet an F550 can only tow 18,500# even though the F550 is MUCH more capable. The towing guide is clearly not a recommendation of the actual capabilities of the trucks.

I do a good bit of construction work so I want the most options in towing and I will likely just get a CDL and be done with it, since i have a F350 ordered. And we have a F550 and a GMC8500

If your use case is to primarily to tow around your RV, a 250 Tremor and a 350 Tremor can essentially tow the same thing however the 250 will run out of cargo/tongue/pin weight 1,500# sooner than a 350. If you want to tow a utility trailer with a GVW over 14,500 you're probably better off getting the 250 and dealing with limited payload capacity (knowing that this limitation is only on paper - they can physically carry same; they are the same truck)

There is also some extent of reciprocity between states. this gets very complicated with big trucks but I believe on class 3 and under our home states rules follow you around - this could be wrong and if any one knows more on this subject I'd like to hear

These are my thoughts. I'm sure I'll be corrected and I welcome the criticism!

Maybe the F550 can only tow 18,500 because it is detuned and is a cab and chassis?

 

[rhines81]

A CDL or non-CDL (commercial or non-commercial [class A or B]) is generally required only when towing more than 10,000# with a combined weight of more than 26,000#.... this is pretty much universal. Playing around with your actual stickered weight ratings of the vehicle and trailer (because Bubba says it'll do it just fine) is asking for a major liability issue down the road should something go wrong. Always take the low road and ignore Bubba. If reality means that you need to bite the bullet and get a CDL, then just do it, but consider that you could change your approach if you really don't need to exceed the 26K limit.
This is a pretty good video, the guy does miss that 150# of the payload includes the driver's weight. A 180# driver adds only 30# to the payload.

 

[rhines81]

EDIT: I forgot to add this...
There is also the possibility in the near future of starting a mobile RV repair business, thus pulling a cargo trailer. I'm assuming such trailer would not weigh more than 10,000 lbs. BUT, at that point I'd be driving as a commercial business....

I'd suggest doing an LLC or S-Corp and sell your personal vehicle and cargo trailer to the 'business'. You should probably talk to a lawyer regarding personal liabilities and insurance requirements to CYA. If your cargo trailer has a GVWR of less than 10K and you do not travel across State lines while towing "commercially", you can still probably skirt around without getting a CDL.

 

[Skibum1681]

May

Maybe the F550 can only tow 18,500 because it is detuned and is a cab and chassis?

I am certainly not arguing,

But -

yes the 450/550 chassis cabs are de-rated horsepower wise but the 550 can tow 31,500# goose neck / 5th wheel so it should be able accelerate/stop the load without a problem. The 550 has 6-19.5" tires/wheels which I believe are "G" rated - these industrial tires can be found on some semi size trailers. It has huge brakes, a huge rear sway bar, and 4.88 gears. In my opinion, there is no way a single rear wheel F350 is more capable towing than a F550.

If the towing de-rate for the 550 is because its a chassis cab and they cant guarantee what hitch is attached to the truck they should say something along the line of conventional towing to be determined by the up-fitter but not to exceed XX,XXX pound's.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread with 550 talk, I just meant to bring light to the fact that the towing guide is a balance between what capabilities marketing can claim (in the case of the F350) and what capabilities the legal and warranty departments are willing to accept (in the case of the 450/550. I suspect deep down they know most single rear wheel pick-up owners will not tow more than the 15,000# (that the Tremor is rated for) let alone the 20,000# the non tremors are rated for. On the flip side deep down they know that landscapers, contractors or commercial applications will have guys that will hook anything to the back of 550 and tow it to a job and the de-rated towing capacity protects ford if/when something goes wrong.

 

[oops]

I'd suggest doing an LLC or S-Corp and sell your personal vehicle and cargo trailer to the 'business'. You should probably talk to a lawyer regarding personal liabilities and insurance requirements to CYA. If your cargo trailer has a GVWR of less than 10K and you do not travel across State lines while towing "commercially", you can still probably skirt around without getting a CDL.

You could also register that LLC in Montana and then pay no sales tax on the truck. ?

 

[WhiskyThrottle]

I'd suggest doing an LLC or S-Corp and sell your personal vehicle and cargo trailer to the 'business'. You should probably talk to a lawyer regarding personal liabilities and insurance requirements to CYA. If your cargo trailer has a GVWR of less than 10K and you do not travel across State lines while towing "commercially", you can still probably skirt around without getting a CDL.

I was looking for this info.. May pm you since I'm a fellow tremor?

 

[ccw]

On question #2, my 7.3 250 Tremor does not have the high capacity tow package, but the hitch is rated to 18200#.

You’d have no problem pulling 14000# recreationally with this truck assuming your trailer has good brakes. If you’re towing heavy trailers commercially (i.e. multiple times a week, under the clock) then there are better options than a SRW Gas Super Duty IMO.

View attachment 21685

To clarify: the sticker on the hitch represents only the rating of the hitch itself, not the truck as a whole. The trailer rating for the truck as a whole is determined by the towing guide or the payload sticker in the door, whichever you hit first.

Not saying whether or not the truck is capable of more or less than any stated number in practice, just that’s what the number on the hitch represents.

 

[oops]

To clarify: the sticker on the hitch represents only the rating of the hitch itself, not the truck as a whole. The trailer rating for the truck as a whole is determined by the towing guide or the payload sticker in the door, whichever you hit first.

Not saying whether or not the truck is capable of more or less than any stated number in practice, just that’s what the number on the hitch represents.

Great point. This completely slipped my mind and I’ve been thinking this was the max tow rating. Clarifying, my 2021 7.3 250 with 4.30 axle says:

Hitch: 18200#

Conventional GCWR (Guide): 24900#
Conventional Tow (Guide): 15000#

Gooseneck Tow (Guide): 17500#
(There’s some ambiguity in the guide on this one, check it out.)

GVWR (Door Jamb) : 10000#

Cargo Weight (Door Jamb): 2874#

?

 

[RandallW201]

You might enjoy playing with this calculator:

Ford Pro™ Events

Learn how Ford Pro™ can help be a productivity accelerator for your business.

fordfleetlive.com

(From this thread: https://www.fordtremor.com/threads/ford’s-new-vin-lookup-towing-and-payload-ratings.4105/)

You can snag VIN numbers off Ford.com inventory to put in there and play with what if scenarios.

You happen to have another link that may work? All I can seem to get to is the Ford Fleet Live page

 

[RandallW201]

Good info guys, I appreciate all of this.

 

[oops]

You happen to have another link that may work? All I can seem to get to is the Ford Fleet Live page

Appears as though Ford has taken the page down. ?

 

[RandallW201]

Of course they did. Heaven forbid we get a useful tool at our disposal, LOL

 

[2020Tremor]

Ok, so if you happened to catch my first post titled "Bummer..." you may have seen I have been recently disappointed in being able to order a 2021 F350 after the "cutoff"
Well, I'm thinking that may be a blessing in disguise now.


I am coming to you all whom may be more knowledgeable about this subject that I now find myself researching (CDL Requirements). And I want to make sure I am understanding correctly before I pull a trigger on something.
I live in Texas and the requirements state:

You need an Texas CDL when you operate the following vehicles:​

CLASS A – Applies only to “combination” vehicles with a Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) more than 26,000 pounds, and the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of the vehicle being towed is more than 10,000 pounds. A driver with a Class A CDL (plus any appropriate endorsements) can also operate all vehicles included in Class B, C, and D (below)

CLASS B – Includes single or combination vehicles where the GVWR of the single vehicle is more than 26,000 pounds. The vehicle being pulled must not be more than 10,000 pounds. A driver with an Texas Class B CDL (plus appropriate endorsements) can also legally operate all vehicles in Class C or D.


I do not want to get a CDL and we do plan on towing a 5th wheel in the 10K-14K lb range
Now, I'm considering the following options and have found these numbers from the Ford Tow Guide

2021 F-250 7.3 Tremor w/ 4.3 axle
24,900 GCWR
17,500 Max Trailer Weight

2021 F-350 7.3 Tremor w/ 4.3 axle
27,500 GCWR
20,000 Max Trailer Weight

So now I'm to my questions.
#1. If I do not want to get a CDL then that throws out the F-350, correct (since it has a GCWR of 27,500)?
#2. If I go with a F-250, can I pull a 14,000 lb trailer? I'm assuming the GVWR is about 10,000 though.
#3. What are my options here? I'm entering a new world for myself.
#4. Last but not least, THANK YOU ALL!!!!!!!

EDIT: I forgot to add this...
There is also the possibility in the near future of starting a mobile RV repair business, thus pulling a cargo trailer. I'm assuming such trailer would not weigh more than 10,000 lbs. BUT, at that point I'd be driving as a commercial business....

Check with TX rules but the fed rules calculate GCWR for CDL by summing GVWR of truck and trailer when GCWR is not listed on FMVSS. Ford doesn’t list GCWR on the white FMVSS sticker for the F250/F350.
Also note there is a Federal CDL exception for RVS but states are allowed to enforce stricter rules. I have read there is a non commercial class A in TX so even for RVS you will need some kind of class A if over 26K combined with a trailer over 10K. Just need to verify how TX figurs GCWR for class A purposes.

 

[Guest2542]

A CDL or non-CDL (commercial or non-commercial [class A or B]) is generally required only when towing more than 10,000# with a combined weight of more than 26,000#.... this is pretty much universal. Playing around with your actual stickered weight ratings of the vehicle and trailer (because Bubba says it'll do it just fine) is asking for a major liability issue down the road should something go wrong. Always take the low road and ignore Bubba. If reality means that you need to bite the bullet and get a CDL, then just do it, but consider that you could change your approach if you really don't need to exceed the 26K limit.
This is a pretty good video, the guy does miss that 150# of the payload includes the driver's weight. A 180# driver adds only 30# to the payload.

That was a good video. Thanks for posting.

 

[Guest2542]

If your not towing a trailer with a GVWR over 14.9K, just get the F250 rated at 10K and all of your worries will go away. I lost a lot of sleep over this dilemma before I made that decision. Keep in mind that a lot states do not go by actual GVW, they go by GVWR; therefore if your vehicle has a 10K GVWR and your GCWR is 24.9K, you should not tow a 16K GVWR trailer even if empty, if the combined sticker weights of the truck & trailer exceed the GCWR. It's usually up to the officer that pulls you over and their interpretation of the laws - but that can turn out to be a huge and expensive hassle to fight it, so take the low road.

Good info. Thank you for the easy explanation. I've been going back and forth between a 250 and 350, and after looking at some trailers, in all honesty I can't see me getting a trailer that is 15k lbs. or more.

 

[Skibum1681]

Good info. Thank you for the easy explanation. I've been going back and forth between a 250 and 350, and after looking at some trailers, in all honesty I can't see me getting a trailer that is 15k lbs. or more.

The difference is the 350 can handle (legally) the 1500-2000# tongue weight and still have capacity for cargo/passangers in the truck

Yes the trucks are physically the same, but the sticker tells the cops how much the truck can weigh and a 250 with a 15k trailer with 10%-15% tongue weight, a few things in the bed and a couple people in the truck will likely weight more than the 10,000# the STICKER says it can weigh.

A 250 with an RV likely wont get waved in to the scales but a 250 with an equipment trailer and say a skidsteer can very likely get waved in

 

[Guest2542]

The difference is the 350 can handle (legally) the 1500-2000# tongue weight and still have capacity for cargo/passangers in the truck

Yes the trucks are physically the same, but the sticker tells the cops how much the truck can weigh and a 250 with a 15k trailer with 10%-15% tongue weight, a few things in the bed and a couple people in the truck will likely weight more than the 10,000# the STICKER says it can weigh.

A 250 with an RV likely wont get waved in to the scales but a 250 with an equipment trailer and say a skidsteer can very likely get waved in

I've only been hauling an open deck car trailer and race car for years, so changing to a small travel trailer would be the next move. I don't have a house full of people that I need to cram into it and require some 37 ft trailer with multiple bedrooms, etc. Just something I can drag around so that I don't have to sleep on the ground anymore.

And after multiple years in tents living in the Middle East....the lustre of tents has worn off for me. I'd do it out of necessity, but not by choice.

An RV would be it for me. I'd be way too dangerous with mechanized equipment.

 

[rhines81]

I was looking for this info.. May pm you since I'm a fellow tremor?

Sure thing, I probably can't help you much except offer my insights from my experiences of owning my own business (it was almost 20 years ago). State laws vary too and tax laws change yearly.