6.7 Time to Oil Pressure

[ccw]

Saw an interesting couple of videos from an engine builder out of Utah diving into 6.7 oil starvation on startup. If you're only going to watch one, watch the second one.

Here's the videos:

The highlights:

• Concern he has: it takes too long for the engine to build oil pressure and get sufficient oil to the bearings (cam and crank).
• Using water, he measures the volume of oil inside the engine, outside of the pan. Works out to about 2 quarts of volume the pump needs to fill before pressure is created. Measuring this is the majority of the first video.
• Using a machine to turn the engine over at 500 RPM (roughly what the starter turns the motor over at), he times how long it takes for oil to get to the turbo charger, showing the camshaft is filled with oil and no longer running dry. Findings:
  • After a simulated oil change: 8 seconds
  • After sitting overnight: 7 seconds
  • After sitting for an hour: 6 seconds
• He installed a "secret" and custom modification on the oil pickup tube (he doesn't reveal details, but it's clearly a check valve of some form) to prevent the oil from draining out of the engine.
  • Had oil flow immediately, albeit at low pressure.
  • Took 4 seconds to build pressure (seemed to align with RPM as the machine spun up).
  • He's installing this mod on all 6.7's he builds going forward. He's invested in it as he wants to reduce the number of warranty claims he sees.

Really interesting videos, IMO. My thoughts:

• I was surprised just how much oil is in the engine while running. 2 quarts is quite a bit!
• How long does the starter take to get up to speed compared to his machine? A notable amount of time without pressure is spent waiting for the machine to get up to speed, so faster acceleration would reduce that time. It would also mean higher speeds without oil, so there's a tradeoff there.
• He touches on it in the video, but what is the impact of pumping air, instead of oil, through the engine on startup? He says pretty confidently that the air will blow any oil film off of the components, but is that true in practice?
• Isn't the oil filter supposed to have an anti-drainback feature on it to prevent the oil from draining out? Why does that seem to be having so little impact here?
• How does the 7.3L gas compare? What about engines from other manufacturers?

 

[HeavyAssault]

We have seen this click bait before. My take :

He's trying to be like that "other guy". Causing people to want a product they don't need. Since the videos I saw were not of a sealed motor his "demos" are actually WAY out of line with reality.

Now the problem : EVEN if this situation was actually going on inside the motor....WOULD you EVEN consider getting the work done on a sub-36k mile driven truck??? NOPE. How do we "fix" it?? We run T6 or some other full synthetic motor oil.

Please don't give this guy any more traction.

 

[ccw]

We have seen this click bait before.

Seen this specific video/channel before? Or the same concern? As I honestly didn't come away with the impression it's click bait. I got the impression it's an engine nerd exploring a concern he has and publishing his findings.

He's trying to be like that "other guy". Causing people to want a product they don't need.

Are you referring to Gale Banks as the "other guy"? Because he does have some of the same vibes, albeit from a different angle. Gale is coming at things from an engineering perspective, whereas this guy is an engine builder.

Since the videos I saw were not of a sealed motor his "demos" are actually WAY out of line with reality.

Legitimate question from me: how would not having the turbo installed change the amount of time needed for the oil to get to the top of the block? The rest of the block appeared sealed during his timed runs.

Now the problem : EVEN if this situation was actually going on inside the motor....WOULD you EVEN consider getting the work done on a sub-36k mile driven truck??? NOPE. How do we "fix" it?? We run T6 or some other full synthetic motor oil.

Agreed with not having the modification done on a truck within manufacturer warranty (60,000 100,000 miles for the engine!).

To be clear, there is no product he's selling or recommending in the video (not directly; obviously the YouTube channel as a whole is selling his shop's services as a whole). The mod he describes is, as far as I'm aware, not for sale on its own, and he never proposed bringing vehicles in to have it installed independently.

He only talks about installing the mod on engines his shop builds (whether an in-place rebuild or a separately built and sold long block). In those cases, he effectively is the engine manufacturer and offers his own warranty. Presumably folks seeking a third-party engine rebuild or long block are outside of, or ineligible for, OEM warranty.

Whether he's working towards selling the mod as an independent product I do not know. It's not a huge leap given he wouldn't show the mod on camera. For now it's exclusively something he's installing on his rebuilds and long blocks.

 

[BroncoHooves]

warranty (60,000 miles for the engine!).

100K/5 yr. for Powerstrokes

 

[Vermonster]

I would like to see Ford engineering's reaction to these videos. Just would be great - even if they validate it - which I doubt.

 

[ccw]

I would like to see Ford engineering's reaction to these videos. Just would be great - even if they validate it - which I doubt.

Agreed! Never going to happen, but sure would be interesting to hear the inside story of the design.

What is this engine builder missing about the engine design? Are there mitigating factors he hasn’t considered? Does this not contribute to bearing wear a meaningful amount and he’s seeing spun bearings due to other factors?

(I know in other videos he’s commented on how many engines, not just 6.7’s, he sees fail due to poor maintenance. Remember those oil changes, folks!)

 

[Vermonster]

Agreed! Never going to happen, but sure would be interesting to hear the inside story of the design.

What is this engine builder missing about the engine design? Are there mitigating factors he hasn’t considered? Does this not contribute to bearing wear a meaningful amount and he’s seeing spun bearings due to other factors?

(I know in other videos he’s commented on how many engines, not just 6.7’s, he sees fail due to poor maintenance. Remember those oil changes, folks!)

I've watched him tear some Cummins engines apart (to fix) too. Seems very well respected by folks. I do also get the Bank's sales vibe. lol

 

[HeavyAssault]

@ccw
Here's your practical homework cause just giving you any answer will not help.

1) Go get a tall glass of whatever you want to drink.
2) Get a straw...a real straw not some paper BS.
3) Start drinking through the straw...watch what happens with the fluid.
4) Stop drinking through the straw. Watch what happens to the fluid.
5) Start drinking through the straw, when the fluid is at the top put your finger over the top of the straw not letting the fluid drop below the top level. Watch what happens to the fluid.
6) Now pull the straw out the glass/fluid. Remove your finger from the top of the straw. Watch what happens to the fluid.

Watch his videos as many times as you want.
Think about what happened during your practical exercise. Think it ALL over, as many times as you think are required. Report your findings. Discuss your analysis of the situation as related to the motor.

> Gale Banks is not the "other guy".
> His "product" is his "service" yet doesn't tell you what that is exactly aside from putting parts together. Just trust him?!?
> If the US Army can "teach" me how to work on $20+ million dollar helicopters I'm PRETTY sure I can teach ANYONE how to rebuild any motor. He's not "engine manufacturer" by a long shot. He puts parts together for a living.

Along with that YES I can't deny there's a few "engineers" that designed stuff for my helicopter that I wanted to have a LONG talk with out by the woodshed.
Not that I knew better how to build anything, but I sure had an idea of the issues downrange of the manufacturing facility. I'm not a small framed guy by any means, nor did I have princess hands. Those were part of my problems I couldn't correct, but damn WHY wasn't there a bigger access panel???

 

[HBTFD]

About the air blowing the oil film off - if air is blowing “off” the oil from the bearings/critical surfaces the air is also blowing more oil from the bottom of the pathways. The lost oil would be replaced by more airborne oil until the oil flow is restored.

My 6.7 oil filter always had plenty of oil inside during oil changes.

I have a hard time believing it takes 8 seconds for oil under 40+ psi to go from the pump to the turbo.

 

[HeavyAssault]

About the air blowing the oil film off - if air is blowing “off” the oil from the bearings/critical surfaces the air is also blowing more oil from the bottom of the pathways. The lost oil would be replaced by more airborne oil until the oil flow is restored.

My 6.7 oil filter always had plenty of oil inside during oil changes.

I have a hard time believing it takes 8 seconds for oil under 40+ psi to go from the pump to the turbo.

 

[Texylvania]

Dave just inked a deal with Discovery channel.

 

[HeavyAssault]

Dave just inked a deal with Discovery channel.

Let me guess....another "Oak Island" themed series based around combustion motors??

 

[ccw]

Here's your practical homework cause just giving you any answer will not help.

1) Go get a tall glass of whatever you want to drink.
2) Get a straw...a real straw not some paper BS.
3) Start drinking through the straw...watch what happens with the fluid.
4) Stop drinking through the straw. Watch what happens to the fluid.
5) Start drinking through the straw, when the fluid is at the top put your finger over the top of the straw not letting the fluid drop below the top level. Watch what happens to the fluid.
6) Now pull the straw out the glass/fluid. Remove your finger from the top of the straw. Watch what happens to the fluid.

Watch his videos as many times as you want.
Think about what happened during your practical exercise. Think it ALL over, as many times as you think are required. Report your findings. Discuss your analysis of the situation as related to the motor.

Gotcha. I didn’t know what exactly you were referring to. Very aware of that phenomenon.

With the straw situation you have one end completely sealed, one end open. Since no air can get in to replace the water, the water stays put.

Could be misunderstanding things on the engine side, but the way I see it there’s air trapped in the crankcase; it’s never completely full of oil. As a result, even if the oil system is completely sealed to external air, the oil could reverse flow and pull air from the crankcase back into the block. Put another way, those passages are sealed to external air but not internal air.

To your original point, would it happen as quickly as he found in his test? Maybe not. With oil on both ends of the oil system wanting to fall back into the pan, they may cancel each other out either partially (slowing it down) or fully (equilibrium).

So agreed that’s a variable that could impact things.

> His "product" is his "service" yet doesn't tell you what that is exactly aside from putting parts together. Just trust him?!?

I mean, I’m not exactly expecting him to produce an 8 hour, multi-part documentary walking through his (claimed) 50 years in the industry (34 years with his own shop) and all of his experience as a prelude to a single YouTube video demonstrating something.

So no, don’t trust him blindly. But yes, people need to do separate research (including watching more of his YouTube videos) if considering actually purchasing from him. Particularly if purchasing anything significant.

> If the US Army can "teach" me how to work on $20+ million dollar helicopters I'm PRETTY sure I can teach ANYONE how to rebuild any motor. He's not "engine manufacturer" by a long shot. He puts parts together for a living.

From a warranty standpoint he becomes the manufacturer. But yes, he’s not a full blown engine manufacturer (he’s not forging cranks or blocks from scratch, for example).

That said, he absolutely does more than put parts together. His shop does all machining necessary to rebuild a motor (when appropriate) - crankshaft repair (including welding and grinding), camshaft repair, cylinder honing, billet part manufacturing to replace factory parts, etc.

Again, lots of broader context not included in this one video because it’s impractical.

I do appreciate your knowledge and expertise, as well! I’m here to learn.

Along with that YES I can't deny there's a few "engineers" that designed stuff for my helicopter that I wanted to have a LONG talk with out by the woodshed.
Not that I knew better how to build anything, but I sure had an idea of the issues downrange of the manufacturing facility. I'm not a small framed guy by any means, nor did I have princess hands. Those were part of my problems I couldn't correct, but damn WHY wasn't there a bigger access panel???

It really does seem like engineers (or the people giving them requirements) hate easy access to things lol.

 

[ccw]

About the air blowing the oil film off - if air is blowing “off” the oil from the bearings/critical surfaces the air is also blowing more oil from the bottom of the pathways. The lost oil would be replaced by more airborne oil until the oil flow is restored.

My 6.7 oil filter always had plenty of oil inside during oil changes.

I have a hard time believing it takes 8 seconds for oil under 40+ psi to go from the pump to the turbo.

Good point about airborne oil!

 

[HeavyAssault]

I was trying to post the coffee table book that gives a description of the oil flow path.

Here's a screen capture :

Although from the 2011 6.7L Coffee Table book, I doubt there's anything significant to the oil flow path that has changed. Here's a better look at the oil flow path.

 

[Optimus]

1) Go get a tall glass of whatever you want to drink.
2) Get a straw...a real straw not some paper BS.
3) Start drinking through the straw...watch what happens with the fluid.
4) Stop drinking through the straw. Watch what happens to the fluid.
5) Start drinking through the straw, when the fluid is at the top put your finger over the top of the straw not letting the fluid drop below the top level. Watch what happens to the fluid.
6) Now pull the straw out the glass/fluid. Remove your finger from the top of the straw. Watch what happens to the fluid.

So I just tried this but a little chunk of ice got stuck in the straw. Is this normal?

 

[Vermonster]

Let's say he puts a check valve in - when you change your oil from now on you will have 2 extra quarts? Dirty quarts lingering? I completely understand his point, and by putting something into prevent the backflow makes me think - but I am not a trained professional. Also - a 6.7 is the same all years?

 

[HeavyAssault]

So I just tried this but a little chunk of ice got stuck in the straw. Is this normal?

Lifter broke. I suggest you reach out the 800-number in your owner's manual for further trouble shooting. Due to the high number of calls your wait time may be significantly longer than expected. You can choose to leave a call back number at which one of our representatives will get back to you as soon as possible to help resolve your issue.

 

[HeavyAssault]

Let's say he puts a check valve in - when you change your oil from now on you will have 2 extra quarts? Dirty quarts lingering? I completely understand his point, and by putting something into prevent the backflow makes me think - but I am not a trained professional. Also - a 6.7 is the same all years?

I would agree to a point, when you look at that flow path diagram, that "check valve would limit very little from getting back to the pan.

Now think about it : WHY is there so much oil that seems to drain out when we take off the oil filter element??? Chicken dinner coupons will not be honored if your guess is correct.

 

[ccw]

So I just tried this but a little chunk of ice got stuck in the straw. Is this normal?

Are you sure it’s ice? Your water shouldn’t be chewable, Optimus.