US Military Records

Molinote · Dec 3, 2021

Maybe an obvious question to ask, have you checked if there is any writing or markings on the back of the photo?

thstevo · Dec 3, 2021

donmatteo said:
I would agree but need to know....

1. When was the photo taken
2. How long was he in when the photo was taken.
3. When did he join, and when did he leave.

That would determine if he was a Petty or Warrant. If he was a machinist or a nuke tech.

Need lots more info.

It does look like a ww2 era photo though.

Not trying to pick on your replies, just correcting comments as I see errors. I already discussed your petty/warrant comment in another post, but I will add that a Petty Officer wouldn’t wear a combination cover, would have worn a Dixie cup.

Also, you’re confused in the “machinist or nuke warrant” comment. Nuke Warrants and non-nuke warrants in that specialty wear the same rating pin.

Pompey · Dec 3, 2021

donmatteo said:
Warrant officer would require 14 years of service IIRC at that time. Lot's of assumptions but if he insisted at the start of the war in 1942, and the picture was taken in 1956, that would jive. If he insisted in 1928, that would give as well. But that type of photo was taken upon commission, entry, or promotion or other notable change in service.

He died in 1950, that much we do know. And we think by then he had joined the army. By that time it seems he’d done enough to be promoted to major.

Remember, for us the war started in 1939. At that stage though Japan had not yet attacked Australia, but were already a threat which increased every day. The bombing of Darwin and the attack on Sydney began in 1942. Perhaps it was these events that motivated him to join the RAN then USN. Or he may have signed up at any time since 1939.

donmatteo · Dec 3, 2021

thstevo said:
Not trying to pick on your replies, just correcting comments as I see errors. I already discussed your petty/warrant comment in another post, but I will add that a Petty Officer wouldn’t wear a combination cover, would have worn a Dixie cup.

Also, you’re confused in the “machinist or nuke warrant” comment. Nuke Warrants and non-nuke warrants in that specialty wear the same rating pin.

No worries.

Good point on the cover.

The Machinist or Nuke Warrant comment was specific to another comment that someone make regarding being nuke specific. My comment was to address that pre-nuke power, it would be been machinist only. after the introduction of nuke power, it would have been a combination. Sorry for my lack of clarification.

I'm former marine and navy history from ww2 is a little rusty. I think I only wore a navy uniform a couple of times when I was on a navy detachment.

donmatteo · Dec 3, 2021

Pompey said:
He died in 1950, that much we do know. And we think by then he had joined the army. By that time it seems he’d done enough to be promoted to major.

Remember, for us the war started in 1939. At that stage though Japan had not yet attacked Australia, but were already a threat which increased every day. The bombing of Darwin and the attack on Sydney began in 1942. Perhaps it was these events that motivated him to join the RAN then USN. Or he may have signed up at any time since 1939.

wait...

so he was RAN, then USN, then USArmy? Did I miss that somewhere?

Would love to see the bars on his shoulder. that would be helpful.

If he joined the USN in WW2, then that would be his enlistment photo. He would have also gotten credit for RAN service. That could explain his USN rank as well.

Pompey · Dec 3, 2021

Molinote said:
Maybe an obvious question to ask, have you checked if there is any writing or markings on the back of the photo?

Let me get back to you. I’ll ask my cousin. The photo itself is on display in a museum so hard to check.

Pompey · Dec 3, 2021

donmatteo said:
wait...

so he was RAN, then USN, then USArmy? Did I miss that somewhere?

Would love to see the bars on his shoulder. that would be helpful.

If he joined the USN in WW2, then that would be his enlistment photo. He would have also gotten credit for RAN service. That could explain his USN rank as well.

He applied to the RAN and was knocked back. Then we believe he joined the USN.

We think at some stage he joined the US army because we believe he was promoted to major.

Loshad · Dec 3, 2021

This is a very interesting story but for the life of me I can't
fathom (sorry, couldn't resist) going from the Navy to the Army.

Pompey · Dec 3, 2021

Loshad said:
This is a very interesting story but for the life of me I can't
fathom (sorry, couldn't resist) going from the Navy to the Army.

We may never know. Perhaps he saw the threat of communism as a threat as great as Japan was and the army was seen as a better way to fight it.

AR_Banjo · Dec 3, 2021

Pompey,

I have a partial answer. I'm a military buff, but this one had me stumped. So, out comes my friend (Google)...

I think the cover insignia is for the US Army Transportation Service. Like this one:

Redirect Notice

AR_Banjo · Dec 3, 2021

Also, I found an example of the collar insignia online, and it was described as an Army Transportation Service Machinist Officer insignia.

And the chinstrap on his service cap is gold, which generally denotes officer.

AR_Banjo · Dec 3, 2021

Here's a link to a book on the Internet Archive website which talks about the ATS:

Insignia of America's Little Known Seafarers (Army Transportation Corps) : Rudy Basurto : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Rudy Basurto authored this book and I illustrated it with pictures of insignia. It was 125-pages in length and is shown by each chapter, this one being on the...

archive.org

Pompey · Dec 3, 2021

AR_Banjo said:
Also, I found an example of the collar insignia online, and it was described as an Army Transportation Service Machinist Officer insignia.

It’s a different badge. The top of the wings are different, as are the cross bars under the eagle. Also, the army one has braid beside the anchors on each side. Very close though, you really have to have the photos side by side to pick the differences. Makes you wonder why there were differences and if anyone at the time knew either.

thstevo · Dec 3, 2021

AR_Banjo said:
Also, I found an example of the collar insignia online, and it was described as an Army Transportation Service Machinist Officer insignia.

And the chinstrap on his service cap is gold, which generally denotes officer.

I think you got it. Found another example of the cap device, this one a commissioned officer with rank shoulder boards and wearing the transportation service collar devices.

Very interesting. I was aware of the Army transportation warrant program in its current form but wasn’t aware that they wore Navy uniforms and rank structure during WWII. I’ve attached their CPO cap device, same as the Navy but has the Transportation Service pin superimposed.

thstevo · Dec 3, 2021

Here’s a link I found, may explain everything. A US Army transportation command based out of Australia during WWII under General MacArthur, had lots of Australian personnel from what the article states.

US Army Small Ships in Australia during WW2

Pompey · Dec 3, 2021

thstevo said:
Here’s a link I found, may explain everything. A US Army transportation command based out of Australia during WWII under General MacArthur, had lots of Australian personnel from what the article states.

US Army Small Ships in Australia during WW2

And I just found this

U.S. Army Small Ships Association Inc

AR_Banjo · Dec 3, 2021

Pompey said:
It’s a different badge. The top of the wings are different, as are the cross bars under the eagle. Also, the army one has braid beside the anchors on each side. Very close though, you really have to have the photos side by side to pick the differences. Makes you wonder why there were differences and if anyone at the time knew either.

I'm betting it's ATS though. There was a surprising bit of variation in bullion insignia back in those days. Often, you can find differences in bullion insignia, based on who made it.

Here's yet another example of an ATS cap insignia. Again, the top of the wings are different, and there is no rope or chain on either side of the anchors.:

thstevo · Dec 3, 2021

Pompey said:
And I just found this

U.S. Army Small Ships Association Inc

Looks like we all helped narrow it down, got the answer!

Interesting history, something I’m definitely going to research.

AR_Banjo · Dec 3, 2021

And an ATS hat and machinist insignia would fit--the ATS operated troop and cargo transport ships, and were the predecessor of the Army Transportation Corps.

Plus the ATS was army, so that would explain his rank of major.

He may have even worn the navy rank of lieutenant commander (while being called a major), as I've seen several things that indicate they wore navy uniforms.

AR_B

Loshad · Dec 3, 2021

"We may never know. Perhaps he saw the threat of communism as a threat as great as Japan was and the army was seen as a better way to fight it."

Well, ground pounders probably sleep better. I'm sure his
reasons were ironclad (there I go again!) and he was a credit
to all wherever he went.