Not sad: Hybrid Super Duty’s no time soon

strogg

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I'm not surprised. Electric motors can generate a ton of torque, but it doesn't deliver it the same way a diesel engine would through a transmission and differential. Also, diesel engines are not designed to work in hybrid environments. I can imagine it being possible to have a KERS style system coupled to a diesel powertrain to boost power and torque momentarily, but there's no way it will make economical sense to implement. The gains to cost ratio would be abysmal with that setup.
 

CalTremor2020

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I’m going to jump in to be the lone (so far) dissenting voice. I’m not a Tesla fanboy, but...

I would love a full electric or full hybrid superduty. I wouldn’t want a mild hybrid (like the new F150). It would need to be battery electric or full hybrid (like a freight train or cargo ship). I know Cummins has already demonstrated their full hybrid setup for class 8.

100% torque available at 0 RPM? Instantaneous “throttle” response at any speed? Crazy torque and power with potential for independent control at each wheel? I’m in. The current generation tesla model s performance is putting out 778 Hp and 841 lb-ft of torque (with just 2 motors) and there isn’t much driveline for losses to occur in. Porsche’s 800V charging infrastructure is capable of charging to 80% in 15 minutes. Electric motors literally have 1 moving part. No oil changes, no engine air filter, no glow plugs, etc. etc.

I LOVE the sound of a diesel as much as the next guy but I’m willing to admit when a superior technology comes along. That’s just my $0.02. I’ve said it once before on the forum somewhere but I bought the diesel Tremor now because it’ll probably be the last chance I have to own a diesel which has been a goal of mine since my grandpa drove home in a new Cummins powered ram when I was 12.
 
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Trämör

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I’m going to jump in to be the lone (so far) dissenting voice. I’m not a Tesla fanboy, but...

I would love a full electric or full hybrid superduty. I wouldn’t want a mild hybrid (like the new F150). It would need to be battery electric or full hybrid (like a freight train or cargo ship). I know Cummins has already demonstrated their full hybrid setup for class 8.

100% torque available at 0 RPM? Instantaneous “throttle” response at any speed? Crazy torque and power with potential for independent control at each wheel? I’m in. The current generation tesla model s performance is putting out 778 Hp and 841 lb-ft of torque (with just 2 motors) and there isn’t much driveline for losses to occur in. Porsche’s 800V charging infrastructure is capable of charging to 80% in 15 minutes. Electric motors literally have 1 moving part. No oil changes, no engine air filter, no glow plugs, etc. etc.

I LOVE the sound of a diesel as much as the next guy but I’m willing to admit when a superior technology comes along. That’s just my $0.02. I’ve said it once before on the forum somewhere but I bought the diesel Tremor now because it’ll probably be the last chance I have to own a diesel which has been a goal of mine since my grandpa drove home in a new Cummins powered ram when I was 12.
Agreed with everything. From a tech and power delivery perspective, a full-electric or even hybrid Super Duty would be nuts. Like dangerously nuts. So much power in 6.5 tons of metal? Damn.
BUT my big concern is that we are pushing too hard too quick on a technology that is not proven (yet) to really help with greenhouse gases.
 

CalTremor2020

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Agreed with everything. From a tech and power delivery perspective, a full-electric or even hybrid Super Duty would be nuts. Like dangerously nuts. So much power in 6.5 tons of metal? Damn.
BUT my big concern is that we are pushing too hard too quick on a technology that is not proven (yet) to really help with greenhouse gases.
Maybe... I wasn’t thinking about how green it was. It just seems like awesome technology. Perhaps a mild hybrid would be better if green is the goal. F1 cars are currently mild hybrid and (on a bench) Mercedes has shown over 50% thermal efficiency from their unit which is absurd. Passenger cars are down in the low 30s. So far the tech they are using is too expensive and complicated for road cars. The MGU-K isn’t a problem but HCCI and MGU-H are. Mazda was going to debut a car with HCCI but I’m not sure where that went. Mercedes says they are going to introduce a version of the MGU-H on an upcoming road car but the closest they’ve come so far is a turbo V6 with an electrically driven supercharger to make up for the turbo lag which is similar in concept to the F1 turbo (electrical boost to intake pressure when turbine output is low) but without the advantage of being able to harvest energy from the turbine side when output of the turbine exceeds compressor requirements. Anyway, I think the combustion engine still has opportunities to show some life but I think manufacturers will need to be aggressive going forward if they want to slow the encroachment of BEVs as the primary choice for performance.
 

Tx-Tremor6.7

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My concern with an electric Super Duty is how fast the batteries will drain when towing. If you have to stop every hundred miles to recharge, your cross country trip times are going to take 4-5 times longer. What happens if you mis-judge your mileage and run out of power? Is AAA going to have charging trucks that will come out and give you enough juice to get to the next super charger?

I am ordering a diesel Tremor for my cross country camping trips and I doubt I will be buying an electric truck in the next decade for anything more than local trips where I can charge it at my house each night.
 
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Churo10

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My concern with an electric Super Duty is how fast the batteries will drain when towing. If you have to stop every hundred miles to recharge, your cross country trip times are going to take 4-5 times longer. What happens if you mis-judge your mileage and run out of power? Is AAA going to have charging trucks that will come out and give you enough juice to get to the next super charger?

I am ordering a diesel Tremor for my cross country camping trips and I doubt I will be buying an electric truck in the next decade for anything more than local trips where I can charge it at my house each night.
Any idea when they might put the generator in the super duty?
 

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We're all just waiting for the next breakthrough in battery technology. We haven't had one since the 70s when Lithium ion were developed. Current batteries aren't very green, take too long to charge, have cooling issues increasing risk of fires, and don't have the same energy density as liquid fuel. If this solid state battery tech becomes a reality we could see batteries that are lighter, charge to complete capacity in 5 minutes, and hold more charge. Some estimates are that a truck like a super duty could hold enough batteries to drive over 1500 miles on a charge. that would be sick. Couple that with insane power numbers and no combustion engine complexity and you'd have a sweet rig. I'd buy one for sure.
 

Tx-Tremor6.7

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We're all just waiting for the next breakthrough in battery technology. We haven't had one since the 70s when Lithium ion were developed. Current batteries aren't very green, take too long to charge, have cooling issues increasing risk of fires, and don't have the same energy density as liquid fuel. If this solid state battery tech becomes a reality we could see batteries that are lighter, charge to complete capacity in 5 minutes, and hold more charge. Some estimates are that a truck like a super duty could hold enough batteries to drive over 1500 miles on a charge. that would be sick. Couple that with insane power numbers and no combustion engine complexity and you'd have a sweet rig. I'd buy one for sure.

These are all fantastic ideas, but as you said, the "next breakthrough in batteries" is the key. Without that, we have nothing to look forward to in an electric SD...
 

Whyte Rhyno

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These are all fantastic ideas, but as you said, the "next breakthrough in batteries" is the key. Without that, we have nothing to look forward to in an electric SD...
exactly. The Atlis, Rivian, Lordstown, etc. are all cool but they're a novelty. No way you could use one for real work. Unless you're ok with charging every 100-150 miles and take 2-3 hour breaks everyday.
 

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You need not just a big breakthrough in battery technology but a massive injection of funds for the electricity grid to cope. Not just in power generation but in distribution as well. Everyone seems to be looking at the glitter and not the substance. If your electricity infrastructure is battling to cope now, it has no chance of coping with the widespread use of electric vehicles.
 

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You need not just a big breakthrough in battery technology but a massive injection of funds for the electricity grid to cope. Not just in power generation but in distribution as well. Everyone seems to be looking at the glitter and not the substance. If your electricity infrastructure is battling to cope now, it has no chance of coping with the widespread use of electric vehicles.
The Elephant in the Room, visible even to our friends from 9,400 miles away.
 

maxspongebob

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IMHO, most of the people who say that a SuperDuty EV is the way to go, don't actually know how most SD trucks are used. The true SD user might only put a few miles on daily but they are HARD miles. It started the day hauling feed to the cows or trailering some animals to market. Then it spends many hours getting hay back to the barn from the field then off to the CO-OP to get a load of seed and fence wire. Then to the back 40 to mend the fence.

Notice, there is no time included for meals or a recharge.
 

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IMHO, most of the people who say that a SuperDuty EV is the way to go, don't actually know how most SD trucks are used. The true SD user might only put a few miles on daily but they are HARD miles. It started the day hauling feed to the cows or trailering some animals to market. Then it spends many hours getting hay back to the barn from the field then off to the CO-OP to get a load of seed and fence wire. Then to the back 40 to mend the fence.

Notice, there is no time included for meals or a recharge.
I have to wonder (truly wondering here - don’t own an EV) if that’s not ideal conditions for an EV.

Higher speeds are where electric struggles the most due to wind resistance, loss of torque at higher motor speeds, and for pure highway driving lack of regen opportunities. What you’re talking about is a lot of moderate speed stuff, including some opportunity for regen. Quite possible the EV would have more than enough range to last a day doing stuff like that.

And remember it’s starting every day with a full “tank” since it charges overnight.

Also possible the towing would burn up too much range too quickly, but I’m not convinced it’s a guaranteed bad fit for that scenario even with today’s battery tech.
 

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I have to wonder (truly wondering here - don’t own an EV) if that’s not ideal conditions for an EV.

Higher speeds are where electric struggles the most due to wind resistance, loss of torque at higher motor speeds, and for pure highway driving lack of regen opportunities. What you’re talking about is a lot of moderate speed stuff, including some opportunity for regen. Quite possible the EV would have more than enough range to last a day doing stuff like that.

And remember it’s starting every day with a full “tank” since it charges overnight.

Also possible the towing would burn up too much range too quickly, but I’m not convinced it’s a guaranteed bad fit for that scenario even with today’s battery tech.
Is it starting every day with a full tank? Those fast chargers that can do that are very, very expensive. Plug into a normal outlet and it will take far longer. And you wouldn’t want an overnight blackout.

I bought mine to tow long distance into very remote areas where only diesel can be relied upon to be available. The cost of upgrading the network in remote areas, and the power generation capacity to supply it, are beyond enormous.
 

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Is it starting every day with a full tank? Those fast chargers that can do that are very, very expensive. Plug into a normal outlet and it will take far longer. And you wouldn’t want an overnight blackout.

I bought mine to tow long distance into very remote areas where only diesel can be relied upon to be available. The cost of upgrading the network in remote areas, and the power generation capacity to supply it, are beyond enormous.
The level 2 chargers (I believe they’re called) aren’t overly expensive. Those are the 240V ones designed for at-home charging that should be able to fully recharge overnight. I say “should” just because I don’t know how large the battery would be in a theoretical fully electric Super Duty.

From what I’ve heard usually a few grand installed. Even rounded up to $5000, that’s still not bad considering the likely price of the truck and the significant maintenance and fuel savings over time.

Ya in your scenario EV doesn’t make much sense for quite some time. Towing long distance hits all the EV weak points I mentioned. Compound that with potentially not returning home at the end of each day (you didn’t specify if you’re staying overnight in the remote areas) and that’s basically worst case scenario for an EV.
 

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Four words... energy density and charge time.

When you can get 1000kW-hr of energy into 1000 lbs of batteries, then we'll have something.
And make it not cost an arm and a leg.

But, you'll still need a 480V service to charge overnight. Who's gonna wait two days to drive if you only have 100A 240V to charge?
 

MoKan

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The level 2 chargers (I believe they’re called) aren’t overly expensive. Those are the 240V ones designed for at-home charging that should be able to fully recharge overnight. I say “should” just because I don’t know how large the battery would be in a theoretical fully electric Super Duty.

From what I’ve heard usually a few grand installed. Even rounded up to $5000, that’s still not bad considering the likely price of the truck and the significant maintenance and fuel savings over time.

Ya in your scenario EV doesn’t make much sense for quite some time. Towing long distance hits all the EV weak points I mentioned. Compound that with potentially not returning home at the end of each day (you didn’t specify if you’re staying overnight in the remote areas) and that’s basically worst case scenario for an EV.
Now do the math for how much power that 240V 100A service provides? 24kW. So a 500 kW-hr battery takes 20 hours to charge using napkin math, probably longer.
 

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